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Old 10-04-2010, 10:40 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor

On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 10:48 -0600, Orion Poplawski wrote:
> I've been trying unsuccessfully for a long to time to try to get this
> discussion started. Perhaps this just isn't right place? If not, where?

It's as good a place as any. The X and desktop developers are the people
who can actually fix it, though, if you can't provide patches.
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:53 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor

On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:35 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote:
> On 5 October 2010 05:30, Orion Poplawski <orion@cora.nwra.com> wrote:
> > Are we really stuck with gdm/kdm/lxdm/...dm
> > implementing it?
>
> No, I think what we need to do is to teach GPM how to turn off the
> internal panel when docked and with the lid closed. The only missing
> piece is for the kernel to export some kind of sysfs boolean saying
> "in-dock". From talks with mjg59, detecting a dock is pretty hard.

Maybe just 'lid closed and external monitor connected' would be close
enough? Is there a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor
connected and the internal system's lid closed, but still have the
internal system's display turned on?
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Old 10-05-2010, 05:19 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor

On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:59 -0600, Orion Poplawski wrote:

> Yeah, I think this is the main issue. It can cause two problems:
>
> - The login screen appears on the laptop screen (which is closed)
> - New windows or the desktop toolbar appear on the laptop screen (which is closed)
>
> I think the fun will come from systems that don't properly report their lid
> status. I think this is one of the complaints from the X developers.

*shrug* those are separate bugs we can fix once we make the actual
behaviour correct.
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Old 10-05-2010, 06:05 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor

On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 08:53:12AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:

> Maybe just 'lid closed and external monitor connected' would be close
> enough? Is there a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor
> connected and the internal system's lid closed, but still have the
> internal system's display turned on?

No, but there is a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor
connected and the system report that the lid is closed, but still have
the internal system's display turned on. Hardware lies.

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Old 10-05-2010, 06:07 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor

On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 10:19:04AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:59 -0600, Orion Poplawski wrote:
> > I think the fun will come from systems that don't properly report their lid
> > status. I think this is one of the complaints from the X developers.
>
> *shrug* those are separate bugs we can fix once we make the actual
> behaviour correct.

Bugs where we turn off people's displays when they're trying to use them
are things that we should address at the start of the development
process, not the end.

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Old 10-05-2010, 06:16 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor

On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:05 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 08:53:12AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>
> > Maybe just 'lid closed and external monitor connected' would be close
> > enough? Is there a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor
> > connected and the internal system's lid closed, but still have the
> > internal system's display turned on?
>
> No, but there is a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor
> connected and the system report that the lid is closed, but still have
> the internal system's display turned on. Hardware lies.

that is a hardware/kernel/acpi bug. The appropriate way to fix it, IMHO,
is to have the sensor report the correct information if it's at all
possible to fix it in the kernel/acpi layer, or if not, blacklist that
specific system so that its lid sensor is completely ignored.
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Old 10-05-2010, 06:18 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor

On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:07 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 10:19:04AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:59 -0600, Orion Poplawski wrote:
> > > I think the fun will come from systems that don't properly report their lid
> > > status. I think this is one of the complaints from the X developers.
> >
> > *shrug* those are separate bugs we can fix once we make the actual
> > behaviour correct.
>
> Bugs where we turn off people's displays when they're trying to use them
> are things that we should address at the start of the development
> process, not the end.

don't we already have default behaviours based on the lid switch,
anyway? So why don't we have this problem with those? IIRC, we default
to suspending the system when the lid is closed on battery power - so
are we suspending people's systems at random, if those systems have
lying lid switches?
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Old 10-05-2010, 06:19 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor

On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:16:44AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:05 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > No, but there is a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor
> > connected and the system report that the lid is closed, but still have
> > the internal system's display turned on. Hardware lies.
>
> that is a hardware/kernel/acpi bug. The appropriate way to fix it, IMHO,
> is to have the sensor report the correct information if it's at all
> possible to fix it in the kernel/acpi layer, or if not, blacklist that
> specific system so that its lid sensor is completely ignored.

I wholeheartedly agree, providing that we can obtain a list of every
piece of hardware that has this issue, along with a list of every piece
of hardware that will have it in future. If that's not available then
userspace is just going to have to deal.

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Old 10-05-2010, 06:20 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor

On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:18:32AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:

> don't we already have default behaviours based on the lid switch,
> anyway? So why don't we have this problem with those? IIRC, we default
> to suspending the system when the lid is closed on battery power - so
> are we suspending people's systems at random, if those systems have
> lying lid switches?

Because we only do that on lid state transitions.

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Old 10-05-2010, 06:25 PM
Matthew Garrett
 
Default Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor

On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 02:18:20PM -0400, Nathaniel McCallum wrote:

> Agreed, the hardware may lie, but the kernel is the arbiter of truth, at
> least in this case.

The range of ways that lid switches can be broken is large. One machine
I've seen tries to read from a GPIO that's off by 16, because Intel's
GPIO/GPE numbering is complicated. Another generates an event on lid
close and generates a different event on lid open, but there's no
handler for the open event and so the state variable never gets updated.
The world is full of bad hardware and the kernel can't always be there
to shield userspace from reality.

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