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Old 09-27-2010, 07:26 PM
Frank Murphy
 
Default x86_64 as Fedora's primary platform

On 27/09/10 20:12, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
<snip>
>
> If you're not swapping x86_64 bringing increased performance is easily
> demonstrated, and has been previously demonstrated here... if there is
> any doubt on this point I'd be glad to run some more benchmarks to
> demonstrate it.

For me inept brain.
You mean no swap partition?

<snip>

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Old 09-27-2010, 07:34 PM
Stephen John Smoogen
 
Default x86_64 as Fedora's primary platform

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 15:12, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 1:58 PM, Stephen John Smoogen <smooge@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 13:48, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The Fedora web resources (e.g. http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora )
>>> continue to promote i686 installs over x86_64, the result being that
>>> only a third of fedora users are on x86_64.
>>>
>>> When will the Fedora project begin recommending x86_64 as the
>>> preferred option on the relevant hardware?
>>
>> Well while many people have x86_64 capable hardware, 66% of the
>> systems have less than 2GB of ram installed on them. The gain of extra
>> registers is taken over by the amount of extra memory used. So I am
>> not sure pushing 64 bit will gain much beyond "why am I using so much
>> memory now?" messages.
>
> I agree that systems which are very short on memory will be happier
> with i386 but I don't think 2GBytes is at all a reasonable cut-off.
> None of the x86_64 desktops I have access to are currently using more
> than 1Gbyte (ignoring cache, of course). *Only something like 11% of
> systems have less than 512MBytes, roughly 1/3rd with less than 1Gbyte.
>

My laptop went into swap after about 4 hours of work from firefox,
thunderbird, and xchat. At 4 GB I find it pretty stable.

On a longer state. Redesigning that page always causes a painful long
list of arguments as everyone wants to be on the top or listed. PPC,
KDE, LXDE, and s390 all come out of the woodwork and want a big link
on top (or lets randomize it to make it even!). So after the last
bikeshedding and my distro is bigger and larger than yours talk.. it
was decided to go with one that worked best on the largest install
base.


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Old 09-27-2010, 07:50 PM
Jan Kratochvil
 
Default x86_64 as Fedora's primary platform

On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:53:09 +0200, seth vidal wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-09-27 at 13:48 -0400, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> > When will the Fedora project begin recommending x86_64 as the
> > preferred option on the relevant hardware?
>
> i686 will run on x86_64 and i686 machines and on the overwhelming
> majority of hw someone will happen to have.
>
> x86_64 will not.

F14+ livecd-tools have now /usr/bin/mkbiarch for live images automatically
choosing x86_64/i686. I was told it is too late for F14 biarch spin but for
F15+ that one should be the best default.

(With all the movie downloads around please do not reply wrt file size.)


Regards,
Jan
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Old 09-27-2010, 07:58 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default x86_64 as Fedora's primary platform

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 21:50:21 +0200,
Jan Kratochvil <jan.kratochvil@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:53:09 +0200, seth vidal wrote:
> > On Mon, 2010-09-27 at 13:48 -0400, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> > > When will the Fedora project begin recommending x86_64 as the
> > > preferred option on the relevant hardware?
> >
> > i686 will run on x86_64 and i686 machines and on the overwhelming
> > majority of hw someone will happen to have.
> >
> > x86_64 will not.
>
> F14+ livecd-tools have now /usr/bin/mkbiarch for live images automatically
> choosing x86_64/i686. I was told it is too late for F14 biarch spin but for
> F15+ that one should be the best default.
>
> (With all the movie downloads around please do not reply wrt file size.)

It still matters whether or not stuff fits on target media.

The number of published spins might also change with F15. Spins SIG as it
has been designed isn't working and needs to change. What that change will
be hasn't been worked out yet.
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Old 09-27-2010, 07:59 PM
Gregory Maxwell
 
Default x86_64 as Fedora's primary platform

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Frank Murphy <frankly3d@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 27/09/10 20:12, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> If you're not swapping x86_64 bringing increased performance is easily
>> demonstrated, and has been previously demonstrated here... if there is
>> any doubt on this point I'd be glad to run some more benchmarks to
>> demonstrate it.
>
> For me inept brain.
> You mean no swap partition?

Ha. No. I mean so long as your working set is smaller than the amount
of physical ram. Or in other words so long as your not frequently
swapping things out to make room, e.g. the swap in/out counters in
vmstat.

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Stephen John Smoogen <smooge@gmail.com> wrote:
> My laptop went into swap after about 4 hours of work from firefox,
> thunderbird, and xchat. At 4 GB I find it pretty stable.

It's not too difficult to drive firefox into using more than 3Gbytes
of _virtual memory_, with the actual in use memory much smaller. On
i386 this inevitably results in a crash, while on x86_64 it's fine—
and even if the memory actually gets dirty at least you can swap it
out.

Very few applications handle OOM gracefully and yet on i686 it's not
too difficult for a desktop grade system to exhaust the address space.
Arguably the continued promotion of i686 is a stability issue.

> On a longer state. Redesigning that page always causes a painful long
> list of arguments as everyone wants to be on the top or listed. PPC,
> KDE, LXDE, and s390 all come out of the woodwork and want a big link
> on top (or lets randomize it to make it even!). So after the last
> bikeshedding and my distro is bigger and larger than yours talk.. it
> was decided to go with one that worked best on the largest install
> base.

As far as I can tell the x86_64 hardware probably already has the
"largest installed base" unless you add all of it's installed base to
i686 since x86_64 supports a compatibility mode. I don't believe that
adding it makes a lot of sense since that kind of reasoning would have
Fedora promoting x86_64 even when i686 was more or less completely
extinct.


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Old 09-27-2010, 08:12 PM
Mike McGrath
 
Default x86_64 as Fedora's primary platform

On Mon, 27 Sep 2010, Gregory Maxwell wrote:

> The Fedora web resources (e.g. http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora )
> continue to promote i686 installs over x86_64, the result being that
> only a third of fedora users are on x86_64.
>
> When will the Fedora project begin recommending x86_64 as the
> preferred option on the relevant hardware?
>

FWIW, we have two measurements of x86_64 vs i686.

Smolt:
65% i686
35% x86_64

mirrors.fedoraproject.org:
70% i686
30% x86_64

-Mike
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Old 09-27-2010, 08:15 PM
Jan Kratochvil
 
Default x86_64 as Fedora's primary platform

On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:58:26 +0200, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 21:50:21 +0200, Jan Kratochvil <jan.kratochvil@redhat.com> wrote:
> > F14+ livecd-tools have now /usr/bin/mkbiarch for live images automatically
> > choosing x86_64/i686. I was told it is too late for F14 biarch spin but for
> > F15+ that one should be the best default.
> >
> > (With all the movie downloads around please do not reply wrt file size.)
>
> It still matters whether or not stuff fits on target media.

After CDs have been replaced by DVDs which have been replaced by flash
disks(*), have you ever seen a CD-only drive? Popular small notebooks have
even no longer a DVD drive.

(*) That it makes no sense with Internet is offtopic for what is popular.


Regards,
Jan
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Old 09-27-2010, 08:25 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default x86_64 as Fedora's primary platform

Mike McGrath (mmcgrath@redhat.com) said:
> > The Fedora web resources (e.g. http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora )
> > continue to promote i686 installs over x86_64, the result being that
> > only a third of fedora users are on x86_64.
> >
> > When will the Fedora project begin recommending x86_64 as the
> > preferred option on the relevant hardware?
> >
>
> FWIW, we have two measurements of x86_64 vs i686.
>
> Smolt:
> 65% i686
> 35% x86_64
>
> mirrors.fedoraproject.org:
> 70% i686
> 30% x86_64

What would be interesting is if there's any way at all to see which
of these stats is driving the other ... it's sort of a circular
relationship.

Bill
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Old 09-27-2010, 08:30 PM
Gregory Maxwell
 
Default x86_64 as Fedora's primary platform

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Mike McGrath <mmcgrath@redhat.com> wrote:
> FWIW, we have two measurements of x86_64 vs i686.
>
> Smolt:
> * * * *65% i686
> * * * *35% x86_64
>
> mirrors.fedoraproject.org:
> * * * *70% i686
> * * * *30% x86_64


Right— it's clear that i686 is far more commonly installed today but a
non-trivial part of that must be due to the fact that the x86_64 links
are hidden. The smolt cpu stats (mhz, number of cores, vendors)
suggests that a significant portion of these i686 installs are x86_64
hardware. Though I don't know of any way to gage this precisely.
Does anything smolt gathers reliably indicate if the system is x86_64
capable? If so, could that data be made public?

I would expect that the i686 install will remain the most common so
long as that is what the Fedora project promotes.

Drawing attention back to the original post for a moment "When will
the Fedora project begin recommending x86_64"— I wasn't rattling so
much for the change to happen now (although I think it should), as
much ask asking when it will happen, or really what criteria will be
used to determine if we've reached that point yet.

I don't think criteria which can never be true (number of systems that
can run x86_64 > can run i686) or which are nearly circular (existing
installed versions; which no-doubt depends strongly on what Fedora
chooses to promote) are all that reasonable.



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Old 09-27-2010, 08:43 PM
Athmane Madjoudj
 
Default x86_64 as Fedora's primary platform

On 09/27/2010 09:30 PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:

>
>
> Right— it's clear that i686 is far more commonly installed today but a
> non-trivial part of that must be due to the fact that the x86_64 links
> are hidden. The smolt cpu stats (mhz, number of cores, vendors)
> suggests that a significant portion of these i686 installs are x86_64
> hardware. Though I don't know of any way to gage this precisely.
> Does anything smolt gathers reliably indicate if the system is x86_64
> capable? If so, could that data be made public?
>
> I would expect that the i686 install will remain the most common so
> long as that is what the Fedora project promotes.
>

IMHO the spins page are more i686/x86_64 neutral, eg:

http://spins.fedoraproject.org/lxde/#downloads


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