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Old 09-21-2010, 09:47 PM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default REVIEW/RFC: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft

Greetings.

I'd like to ask for feedback and helping cleaning up an updates policy
draft page:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft

How can we clarify the language or the layout of the page to be more
clear? Are there places that it could be more like the existing package
update howto page? Could we be more detailed about what bodhi enforces
and whats just good practice?

Are there other exceptions cases that could be covered that you can
think of?

NOTE that this is a draft. I'd like constructive feedback.
If we can get something that looks ok by next week, FESCo would like to
approve this and put it in place.

Please do try and keep technical and constructive in replies, pretty
please? With a cherry on top?

kevin


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Old 09-21-2010, 10:09 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default REVIEW/RFC: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 15:47:04 -0600,
Kevin Fenzi <kevin@scrye.com> wrote:
> Greetings.
>
> I'd like to ask for feedback and helping cleaning up an updates policy
> draft page:

Do you want feedback on the mailing list or the Talk page pn the wiki?
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:13 PM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default REVIEW/RFC: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft

On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 17:09:32 -0500
Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 15:47:04 -0600,
> Kevin Fenzi <kevin@scrye.com> wrote:
> > Greetings.
> >
> > I'd like to ask for feedback and helping cleaning up an updates
> > policy draft page:
>
> Do you want feedback on the mailing list or the Talk page pn the wiki?

Either I guess. Mail might be more handy... but I can check the Talk
page too.

Also, if it's just clarification or typo fixing or whatever, feel free
to just edit the wiki page.

kevin
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Old 09-22-2010, 01:06 AM
Josh Boyer
 
Default REVIEW/RFC: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Kevin Fenzi <kevin@scrye.com> wrote:
> Greetings.
>
> I'd like to ask for feedback and helping cleaning up an updates policy
> draft page:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft
>
> How can we clarify the language or the layout of the page to be more
> clear? Are there places that it could be more like the existing package
> update howto page? Could we be more detailed about what bodhi enforces
> and whats just good practice?
>
> Are there other exceptions cases that could be covered that you can
> think of?

You've obviously spent a lot of time thinking about the exceptions. I
think that is good. I would, however, suggest you also include
examples of changes/updates that are not applicable for a stable
release.

josh
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Old 09-22-2010, 06:01 AM
Eric Smith
 
Default REVIEW/RFC: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft

Seems generally reasonable to me.

Is there a definition somewhere of what constitutes a "critical path
update"?

Eric

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Old 09-22-2010, 07:05 AM
Tomasz Torcz
 
Default REVIEW/RFC: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 11:01:04PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote:
> Seems generally reasonable to me.
>
> Is there a definition somewhere of what constitutes a "critical path
> update"?

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Critical_path_packages#Where_can_I_find_the_critic al_path.3F

--
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xmpp: zdzichubg@chrome.pl wagon filled with backup tapes." -- Jim Gray

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Old 09-22-2010, 10:35 AM
Tomas Mraz
 
Default REVIEW/RFC: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft

On Tue, 2010-09-21 at 15:47 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> Greetings.
>
> I'd like to ask for feedback and helping cleaning up an updates policy
> draft page:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft
>
> How can we clarify the language or the layout of the page to be more
> clear? Are there places that it could be more like the existing package
> update howto page? Could we be more detailed about what bodhi enforces
> and whats just good practice?
>
> Are there other exceptions cases that could be covered that you can
> think of?
>
> NOTE that this is a draft. I'd like constructive feedback.
> If we can get something that looks ok by next week, FESCo would like to
> approve this and put it in place.
>
> Please do try and keep technical and constructive in replies, pretty
> please? With a cherry on top?

- Avoid changing the user experence if at all possible. - this is too
strong condition. In some cases fixing a bug might inevitable change the
user experience and in some cases for example the user experience might
be just severally improved with the new release. So IMO this should be
reworded with much less strong wording such as 'Avoid major changes and
worsening the user experience if at all possible.'

This example is IMO wrong:
- WebKit requires an update to solve a security problem. This requires
updating Midori to a version with some minor menu layout changes. This
would be a judgement call based on how intrusive the changes are
(removing the File menu would be rude, but moving the plugin
configuration menu item would be acceptable).
In this case even major changes in user experience are justified -
knowingly insecure web browser just should not be used.
--
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No matter how far down the wrong road you've gone, turn back.
Turkish proverb

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Old 09-22-2010, 10:48 AM
drago01
 
Default REVIEW/RFC: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft

On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 12:35 PM, Tomas Mraz <tmraz@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-09-21 at 15:47 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>> Greetings.
>>
>> I'd like to ask for feedback and helping cleaning up an updates policy
>> draft page:
>>
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft
>>
>> How can we clarify the language or the layout of the page to be more
>> clear? Are there places that it could be more like the existing package
>> update howto page? Could we be more detailed about what bodhi enforces
>> and whats just good practice?
>>
>> Are there other exceptions cases that could be covered that you can
>> think of?
>>
>> NOTE that this is a draft. I'd like constructive feedback.
>> If we can get something that looks ok by next week, FESCo would like to
>> approve this and put it in place.
>>
>> Please do try and keep technical and constructive in replies, pretty
>> please? With a cherry on top?
>
> - Avoid changing the user experence if at all possible. - this is too
> strong condition. In some cases fixing a bug might inevitable change the
> user experience and in some cases for example the user experience might
> be just severally improved with the new release. So IMO this should be
> reworded with much less strong wording such as 'Avoid major changes and
> worsening the user experience if at all possible.'

Define "worsening" being different by itself is "worsening" for a lot of people.

> This example is IMO wrong:
> - WebKit requires an update to solve a security problem. This requires
> updating Midori to a version with some minor menu layout changes. This
> would be a judgement call based on how intrusive the changes are
> (removing the File menu would be rude, but moving the plugin
> configuration menu item would be acceptable).
> In this case even major changes in user experience are justified -
> knowingly insecure web browser just should not be used.

That isn't any different than the firefox example on the page i.e
already covered.
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Old 09-22-2010, 01:34 PM
Tomas Mraz
 
Default REVIEW/RFC: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft

On Wed, 2010-09-22 at 12:48 +0200, drago01 wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 12:35 PM, Tomas Mraz <tmraz@redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2010-09-21 at 15:47 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> >> Greetings.
> >>
> >> I'd like to ask for feedback and helping cleaning up an updates policy
> >> draft page:
> >>
> >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft
> >>
> >> How can we clarify the language or the layout of the page to be more
> >> clear? Are there places that it could be more like the existing package
> >> update howto page? Could we be more detailed about what bodhi enforces
> >> and whats just good practice?
> >>
> >> Are there other exceptions cases that could be covered that you can
> >> think of?
> >>
> >> NOTE that this is a draft. I'd like constructive feedback.
> >> If we can get something that looks ok by next week, FESCo would like to
> >> approve this and put it in place.
> >>
> >> Please do try and keep technical and constructive in replies, pretty
> >> please? With a cherry on top?
> >
> > - Avoid changing the user experence if at all possible. - this is too
> > strong condition. In some cases fixing a bug might inevitable change the
> > user experience and in some cases for example the user experience might
> > be just severally improved with the new release. So IMO this should be
> > reworded with much less strong wording such as 'Avoid major changes and
> > worsening the user experience if at all possible.'
>
> Define "worsening" being different by itself is "worsening" for a lot of people.
It's clear that this cannot be a hard rule if we do not want to make
Fedora ultra-conservative distribution. There are much better choices
for ultra-conservative users.

> > This example is IMO wrong:
> > - WebKit requires an update to solve a security problem. This requires
> > updating Midori to a version with some minor menu layout changes. This
> > would be a judgement call based on how intrusive the changes are
> > (removing the File menu would be rude, but moving the plugin
> > configuration menu item would be acceptable).
> > In this case even major changes in user experience are justified -
> > knowingly insecure web browser just should not be used.
>
> That isn't any different than the firefox example on the page i.e
> already covered.
Yes, and that's the reason the example is wrong and it should be
removed.

--
Tomas Mraz
No matter how far down the wrong road you've gone, turn back.
Turkish proverb

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Old 09-22-2010, 02:05 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default REVIEW/RFC: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Updates_Policy_Draft

On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 12:35:01 +0200,
Tomas Mraz <tmraz@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> - Avoid changing the user experence if at all possible. - this is too
> strong condition. In some cases fixing a bug might inevitable change the
> user experience and in some cases for example the user experience might
> be just severally improved with the new release. So IMO this should be
> reworded with much less strong wording such as 'Avoid major changes and
> worsening the user experience if at all possible.'

Perhaps the definition of "user experience" needs to get fleshed out a bit.
I think the intent is that people should be able to easily do whatever
they were doing before the update the exact same way after the update. If they
need to learn something new after after the update, that's a problem.
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