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Old 09-21-2010, 02:59 PM
Brandon Lozza
 
Default Fedora "backports" repo? (Was PostgreSQL 9 for F14?)

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 09/21/2010 07:20 AM, Brandon Lozza wrote:
>> One thing I wanted to point out. Windows users get to install the
>> latest Firefox, KDE, and other apps without having to wait for a new
>> Windows release. If users had to wait for Windows 8 to get the latest
>> Firefox, things would be messy. I don't understand what the fear is of
>> doing this on GNU/Linux.

However, if for example Microsoft had a similar system and did package
software for it. Their users would be up in arms for the latest
firefox too and Microsoft wouldn't keep them on an old firefox
version. Where is the logic in NOT having the latest software as long
as it doesn't break file format compatibility? On windows the user can
also install software without having to follow a complex procedure.
They can try to grab the firefox source code, manually compile it in a
few hours and install it. They can also grab a precompiled binary that
may or may not be optimized for their distribution. On Windows its
just double click, and on Linux with package management its only a few
clicks away too.

Look at openSUSE, GCC 4.5, came out before F13, no banning of LTO. If
you want something better than stable for KDE you can one click
install the factory KDE repo. You can one click install the trunk repo
too. They even have two Chromium branches available for single click
install (version 6 and 7). Perhaps a single click or easy method of
installing a yum repo could be invented that is similar to the one in
openSUSE. That would be a good start.

I would personally rather use Fedora and not openSUSE too. Before I
receive the cop out one liner 'just use suse then'.
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Old 09-21-2010, 03:22 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Fedora "backports" repo? (Was PostgreSQL 9 for F14?)

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 10:59:06 -0400,
Brandon Lozza <brandon@pwnage.ca> wrote:
> However, if for example Microsoft had a similar system and did package
> software for it. Their users would be up in arms for the latest
> firefox too and Microsoft wouldn't keep them on an old firefox
> version. Where is the logic in NOT having the latest software as long
> as it doesn't break file format compatibility? On windows the user can

Unexpectedly changing the UI is also bad.

> Look at openSUSE, GCC 4.5, came out before F13, no banning of LTO. If
> you want something better than stable for KDE you can one click
> install the factory KDE repo. You can one click install the trunk repo
> too. They even have two Chromium branches available for single click
> install (version 6 and 7). Perhaps a single click or easy method of
> installing a yum repo could be invented that is similar to the one in
> openSUSE. That would be a good start.

Alternate repos are possible, but take work. Fedora doesn't have spare
capacity to be doing this sort of thing right now. If you want to make it
happen, you can by leading and working on a project to do that. As long
as you are willing to work and can get a at least a few like minded
volunteers also willing to work you should have at least some success.

People here aren't against having a way to install alternate versions of
packagers per se, but are noting that there is a significant amount of
work needed. And many of us think there are better ways to be spending
our limited time helping Fedora. But if it is a high priority for other
people willing to do the work, it's something that could be done.
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Old 09-21-2010, 07:07 PM
Liang Suilong
 
Default Fedora "backports" repo? (Was PostgreSQL 9 for F14?)

If someone has enough interest in backporting something from a newer release, we can set up a personal repo on the *repos.fedorapeople.org. Just like firefox4 and yum-rawhide repo.*


Maybe we wait for Copr. Seth Vidal is working on it. We can easily set up and manage a backport or testing repo on Copr.*
But I have another question. As we know, Fedora is a fast-upgrade Linux distribution. Many new features will be added in every release. If we backport the most desirable features, how should we attract users to upgrade to the latest one? Do we hope that Fedora becomes a rolling upgrade distribution?



On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to> wrote:


On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 10:59:06 -0400,

*Brandon Lozza <brandon@pwnage.ca> wrote:

> However, if for example Microsoft had a similar system and did package

> software for it. Their users would be up in arms for the latest

> firefox too and Microsoft wouldn't keep them on an old firefox

> version. Where is the logic in NOT having the latest software as long

> as it doesn't break file format compatibility? On windows the user can



Unexpectedly changing the UI is also bad.



> Look at openSUSE, GCC 4.5, came out before F13, no banning of LTO. If

> you want something better than stable for KDE you can one click

> install the factory KDE repo. You can one click install the trunk repo

> too. They even have two Chromium branches available for single click

> install (version 6 and 7). Perhaps a single click or easy method of

> installing a yum repo could be invented that is similar to the one in

> openSUSE. That would be a good start.



Alternate repos are possible, but take work. Fedora doesn't have spare

capacity to be doing this sort of thing right now. If you want to make it

happen, you can by leading and working on a project to do that. As long

as you are willing to work and can get a at least a few like minded

volunteers also willing to work you should have at least some success.



People here aren't against having a way to install alternate versions of

packagers per se, but are noting that there is a significant amount of

work needed. And many of us think there are better ways to be spending

our limited time helping Fedora. But if it is a high priority for other

people willing to do the work, it's something that could be done.

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https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Liangsuilong


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Old 09-21-2010, 07:10 PM
seth vidal
 
Default Fedora "backports" repo? (Was PostgreSQL 9 for F14?)

On Wed, 2010-09-22 at 03:07 +0800, Liang Suilong wrote:
> If someone has enough interest in backporting something from a newer
> release, we can set up a personal repo on the repos.fedorapeople.org.
> Just like firefox4 and yum-rawhide repo.
>
>
> Maybe we wait for Copr. Seth Vidal is working on it. We can easily set
> up and manage a backport or testing repo on Copr.

I'm not alone. Toshio, mapleoin are doing the heavy lifting

http://mapleoin.bluepink.ro/tag/copr.html

for lots of info.


-sv



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Old 09-21-2010, 09:01 PM
Gerald Henriksen
 
Default Fedora "backports" repo? (Was PostgreSQL 9 for F14?)

On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:20:05 -0400, you wrote:

>One thing I wanted to point out. Windows users get to install the
>latest Firefox, KDE, and other apps without having to wait for a new
>Windows release. If users had to wait for Windows 8 to get the latest
>Firefox, things would be messy. I don't understand what the fear is of
>doing this on GNU/Linux.

The key point of your example is that they have to actually make the
effort to go to the appropriate website (or store to buy a physical
disc), and specifically install what they want. It doesn't magically
appear when they allow Windows to do an update.

You can do the same thing on Fedora, you can if you so wish go to the
mozilla website and download the latest Firefox.

The problem facing Fedora, and Linux in general, is the distributions
blur the difference between the OS and apps by providing both. But
unless you want to encourage users to not apply security updates or
bug fixes you can't combine doing updates with upgrades.

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Old 09-21-2010, 09:45 PM
Gerald Henriksen
 
Default Fedora "backports" repo? (Was PostgreSQL 9 for F14?)

On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:59:06 -0400, you wrote:

>However, if for example Microsoft had a similar system and did package
>software for it. Their users would be up in arms for the latest
>firefox too and Microsoft wouldn't keep them on an old firefox
>version.

You are ignoring the troubles Microsoft has had in trying to get its
users to update IE.

> Where is the logic in NOT having the latest software as long
>as it doesn't break file format compatibility? On windows the user can

I think it wonderful that you always want the latest software, but
just ask that you consider the view of other people who are trying to
get their job done.

Many of the people using Fedora are using it as a tool to get their
normal work done. While file format compatibility is one issue,
anything that disrupts their ability to get their job done should be
avoided mid-release. This can be a changing in the GUI layout, the
ability of plugins to work, or a new version having more bugs.

>Look at openSUSE, GCC 4.5, came out before F13, no banning of LTO. If

The decision on gcc would have to have been made around January, to
allow time for any bugs to be worked out both in gcc and in any
software included in Fedora 13. I would assume that the gcc
maintainers felt it wasn't ready at that time, plus most of the useful
stuff had already been backported by them into the Fedora version of
gcc 4.4.

As far as LTO, the Fedora gcc maintainers have decided that it is not
yet stable and ready to be used. The fact that you don't believe the
issues with LTO are important, or that openSUSE doesn't, isn't
relevant to Fedora. What is relevant is that the Fedora expert(s) on
gcc have decided that it isn't ready for use yet.

>you want something better than stable for KDE you can one click
>install the factory KDE repo. You can one click install the trunk repo
>too. They even have two Chromium branches available for single click
>install (version 6 and 7). Perhaps a single click or easy method of
>installing a yum repo could be invented that is similar to the one in
>openSUSE. That would be a good start.

Like anything else, if it is important to you then you can work on
implementing it. Fedora is limited in what can be done by what the
volunteers doing the work actually do.

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Old 09-21-2010, 09:57 PM
Stephen John Smoogen
 
Default Fedora "backports" repo? (Was PostgreSQL 9 for F14?)

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 15:45, Gerald Henriksen <ghenriks@gmail.com> wrote:

>>you want something better than stable for KDE you can one click
>>install the factory KDE repo. You can one click install the trunk repo
>>too. They even have two Chromium branches available for single click
>>install (version 6 and 7). Perhaps a single click or easy method of
>>installing a yum repo could be invented that is similar to the one in
>>openSUSE. That would be a good start.
>
> Like anything else, if it is important to you then you can work on
> implementing it. *Fedora is limited in what can be done by what the
> volunteers doing the work actually do.
>

I think that is a key element here that people should remember: When
someone says "I want X" it can sound a lot like "You must do X" which
always sounds like make-work and demanding another volunteer to do
something.


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Randy Nelson, President of Pixar University.
"We have a strategic plan. It's called doing things.""
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Old 09-21-2010, 11:40 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora "backports" repo? (Was PostgreSQL 9 for F14?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 09/21/2010 07:20 AM, Brandon Lozza wrote:
> One thing I wanted to point out. Windows users get to install the
> latest Firefox, KDE, and other apps without having to wait for a new
> Windows release. If users had to wait for Windows 8 to get the latest
> Firefox, things would be messy. I don't understand what the fear is of
> doing this on GNU/Linux.

Windows releases are years apart, not even close to comparable. Also
Firefox updates are provided to the user via mozilla, not Microsoft.
The same can be done on Fedora, if you really wanted to you could go get
the new firefox from Mozilla (or somebody else who builds a more Fedora
suitable version for you).

- --
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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Old 09-22-2010, 04:34 AM
Jon Masters
 
Default Fedora "backports" repo? (Was PostgreSQL 9 for F14?)

On Tue, 2010-09-21 at 10:59 -0400, Brandon Lozza wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com> wrote:
> > On 09/21/2010 07:20 AM, Brandon Lozza wrote:
> >> One thing I wanted to point out. Windows users get to install the
> >> latest Firefox, KDE, and other apps without having to wait for a new
> >> Windows release. If users had to wait for Windows 8 to get the latest
> >> Firefox, things would be messy. I don't understand what the fear is of
> >> doing this on GNU/Linux.

In my personal opinion, Windows makes mistakes, but is more enlightened
when it comes to embracing users installing stuff they did not get from
Microsoft. On non-enterprise Linux systems, the libraries and userland
change so often you really do need to either have a third party building
for every release, or getting it in the distro (which isn't always
practical or possible). I'm sure I'll be told how "wrong" I am.

> However, if for example Microsoft had a similar system and did package
> software for it. Their users would be up in arms for the latest
> firefox too and Microsoft wouldn't keep them on an old firefox
> version. Where is the logic in NOT having the latest software as long
> as it doesn't break file format compatibility?

You know what's kinda cool about some other Operating Systems? (Linux,
non-Linux, etc.) You install them, then they always work the same way
until you decide to upgrade them one day (when you set aside time to fix
all the "this shouldn't be a problem, but oh yea, there's that corner
case that..." issues). All the bugs are consistent, if you plug in a
gizmo it works or doesn't, but there are few random surprises. I love
lack of random surprises. It's not just file formats and the innards.

I'd rather see either a backports repo with all the junk, or just no
junk and only have new stuff land in the next release. That changes
nothing about Fedora releases, other than adding predictability.

Jon.


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Old 09-22-2010, 09:19 AM
"Richard W.M. Jones"
 
Default Fedora "backports" repo? (Was PostgreSQL 9 for F14?)

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 01:51:03AM +0200, Michał Piotrowski wrote:
> 2010/9/21 Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger@gmail.com>:
> > As the concept of using third party repositories (both as packagers and as
> > users) grows, this interdependence will grow.
>
> Ok, so maybe it's time to setup Fedora "backports" repo for these that
> wants new and shiny Firefox 4, PostgreSQL 9 or whatever with big
> number.

We already do this for virtualization features:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Virtualization_Preview_Repository

It's a fair amount of work for Justin.

Rich.

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