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Old 06-04-2010, 02:35 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default JBoss stalled (was status of some packages ??)

Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> You might feel that way, but the simple fact is that French citizens can
> not abandon copyright (aka put works into the Public Domain). This is
> the only license that we've been given, but since it is not valid, we
> can't use it. Without a license, we cannot include this in Fedora,
> because we have none of the rights required for Free Software.

There are plenty of projects partly or entirely written by Europeans which
are supposedly "Public Domain", which all have this issue. A lot of that
code is already in Fedora. Even projects under the GPL or some other
copyright license may be incorporating such code, without even mentioning
it, since there's no requirement to mention use of public domain code. It
feels odd to single out one such project.

Plus, since Red Hat is in the US, doesn't US copyright law apply? What I
have read everywhere is that it's the copyright law of the distributor's
country which prevails, not the one of the author's country.

Have you talked to Red Hat Legal about this? They OKed distributing that
code along with JBoss, didn't they?

Kevin Kofler

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Old 06-04-2010, 12:09 PM
"Tom "spot" Callaway"
 
Default JBoss stalled (was status of some packages ??)

On 06/03/2010 10:35 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>> You might feel that way, but the simple fact is that French citizens can
>> not abandon copyright (aka put works into the Public Domain). This is
>> the only license that we've been given, but since it is not valid, we
>> can't use it. Without a license, we cannot include this in Fedora,
>> because we have none of the rights required for Free Software.
>
> There are plenty of projects partly or entirely written by Europeans which
> are supposedly "Public Domain", which all have this issue. A lot of that
> code is already in Fedora. Even projects under the GPL or some other
> copyright license may be incorporating such code, without even mentioning
> it, since there's no requirement to mention use of public domain code. It
> feels odd to single out one such project.

I am not in any way singling out one such project. If you have examples,
please highlight them, and we will address them as well.

~spot
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Old 06-04-2010, 12:33 PM
"Richard W.M. Jones"
 
Default JBoss stalled (was status of some packages ??)

On Thu, Jun 03, 2010 at 08:24:33PM +0100, Alex Hudson wrote:
> So effectively we're arguing that everyone else, Red Hat included, is
> either oblivious to the legal risk or they looked at it and came to the
> wrong conclusion. All of them.

This isn't the only time it's happened. Debian still distributes
'cdecl'. Fedora has unfortunately had to drop this very useful
package because (whatever anyone else claims) the license is *not*
clearly free[1].

Rich.

[1] http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/44696488bec6398f

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Old 06-04-2010, 03:28 PM
Alexander Boström
 
Default JBoss stalled (was status of some packages ??)

tor 2010-06-03 klockan 19:31 +0100 skrev Alex Hudson:
> On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 12:29 -0400, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> > On 06/03/2010 11:54 AM, Iain Arnell wrote:
> > > And slightly weird that it's okay for Red Hat to distribute it
> > > themselves, both commercially and as open source from jboss.org, but
> > > it's questionable for Fedora.
> >
> > I can't speak on what Red Hat does on a larger scale. I do know that it
> > is important to me and Fedora that we do it properly, or not at all.
>
> If everyone else is distributing JBoss, though, that calls into question
> whether it's Fedora doing it "properly".
>
> Worrying about a set of rights which are unwaivable seems on the face of
> it to be exhibiting an abundance of over-caution, and it seems
> particularly sad that Fedora is losing out having to refrain from
> distributing another Red Hat-sponsored project.

It's not sad. It means the Fedora project will do the work to clean up a
mess which most other don't even see. It's problematic, in a way, sure,
but "sad" is really not the right word.

/Alexander


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Old 06-04-2010, 04:26 PM
Matěj Cepl
 
Default JBoss stalled (was status of some packages ??)

Dne 3.6.2010 21:09, Tom "spot" Callaway napsal(a):
> You might feel that way, but the simple fact is that French citizens can
> not abandon copyright (aka put works into the Public Domain).

Do we have some better authority on this than Wikipedia? In my
understanding (in a dim memory, now long-time inactive lawyer), dual
character of copyright under the copyright law in the continental law
tradition could mean, that waiver of copyright is partially invalid (in
the part concerned with personal rights of owner), but perfectly valid
in the right to exploit economical character of the work, which is all
what matters here anyway. I would really like to see some opinion of the
real European IP law on the matter. Does anybody have URL?

Matěj
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Old 06-04-2010, 08:10 PM
"Tom "spot" Callaway"
 
Default JBoss stalled (was status of some packages ??)

On 06/04/2010 12:26 PM, Matěj Cepl wrote:
> Dne 3.6.2010 21:09, Tom "spot" Callaway napsal(a):
>> You might feel that way, but the simple fact is that French citizens can
>> not abandon copyright (aka put works into the Public Domain).
>
> Do we have some better authority on this than Wikipedia? In my
> understanding (in a dim memory, now long-time inactive lawyer), dual
> character of copyright under the copyright law in the continental law
> tradition could mean, that waiver of copyright is partially invalid (in
> the part concerned with personal rights of owner), but perfectly valid
> in the right to exploit economical character of the work, which is all
> what matters here anyway. I would really like to see some opinion of the
> real European IP law on the matter. Does anybody have URL?

Matěj, as I'm sure you know, we could find a lawyer who would tell us
just about anything we wanted to hear. I consulted with Red Hat Legal,
and the conclusion that we came to was that it was not possible for the
copyright holders to abandon their copyright on this work due to their
jurisdiction, thus, we cannot include it as-is and need to clarify a
license for the work.

~spot
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Old 06-04-2010, 08:15 PM
R P Herrold
 
Default JBoss stalled (was status of some packages ??)

On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:

Matěj Cepl asked for
>> I would really like to see some opinion of the real
>> European IP law on the matter. Does anybody have URL?

and received a slam at lawyers in the open to the reply.

> Matěj, as I'm sure you know, we could find a lawyer who
> would tell us just about anything we wanted to hear.

sad, sad

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Old 06-04-2010, 11:18 PM
Matěj Cepl
 
Default JBoss stalled (was status of some packages ??)

Dne 4.6.2010 22:10, Tom "spot" Callaway napsal(a):
> Matěj, as I'm sure you know, we could find a lawyer who would tell us

I said European IP lawyer, but I will let it be.

Matěj

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Old 06-05-2010, 05:38 AM
Chen Lei
 
Default JBoss stalled (was status of some packages ??)

Can anyone contact members in AOP alliance directly, maybe it's helpful?

e.g. Cédric Beus
http://beust.com/weblog/ (http://twitter.com/cbeust)


All members info see http://aopalliance.sourceforge.net/members.html

Regards,
Chen Lei
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Old 06-05-2010, 09:28 AM
Alex Hudson
 
Default JBoss stalled (was status of some packages ??)

On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 16:10 -0400, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> Matěj, as I'm sure you know, we could find a lawyer who would tell us
> just about anything we wanted to hear. I consulted with Red Hat Legal,
> and the conclusion that we came to was that it was not possible for the
> copyright holders to abandon their copyright on this work due to their
> jurisdiction, thus, we cannot include it as-is and need to clarify a
> license for the work.

So Red Hat's lawyers know that Red Hat are distributing something which
they have no license for, so either they haven't passed that message on
or Red Hat have decided they don't care?*

Bizarre.

Cheers

Alex.

*. This is a rhetorical question.


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