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Old 05-02-2010, 03:25 PM
yersinia
 
Default popularity package context on fedora

Would be interesting to have in Fedora something like this

http://popcon.debian.org/

?

Look interesting from a QA point of view.

Regards
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Old 05-03-2010, 05:52 PM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default popularity package context on fedora

On Sun, 2 May 2010 17:25:10 +0200
yersinia <yersinia.spiros@gmail.com> wrote:

> Would be interesting to have in Fedora something like this
>
> http://popcon.debian.org/
>
> ?
>
> Look interesting from a QA point of view.

It's been suggested many times before, but no one has really stepped
forward to champion it.

There is an rpm version being worked on by an OpenSUSE person:

http://gitorious.org/opensuse/popcorn

Something would need to be packaged, tested, etc.

Then the problem becomes what data to store, how to store it.
It's going to be a vast amount of data, and we would need some server
to store it, policies around when to drop entries, etc.

Not that I think it's a bad idea, It just needs a group of determined
people to work on and make it happen.

kevin
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Old 05-03-2010, 06:20 PM
Athmane Madjoudj
 
Default popularity package context on fedora

>
> It's been suggested many times before, but no one has really stepped
> forward to champion it.
>
> There is an rpm version being worked on by an OpenSUSE person:
>
> http://gitorious.org/opensuse/popcorn
>
> Something would need to be packaged, tested, etc.
>
> Then the problem becomes what data to store, how to store it.
> It's going to be a vast amount of data, and we would need some server
> to store it, policies around when to drop entries, etc.
>
> Not that I think it's a bad idea, It just needs a group of determined
> people to work on and make it happen.
>
> kevin
>

i have looked at the source code (C server side / Python client side), it uses
libtdb [1] as storage back-end (a plain text format) , i think that
sqlite is better, and you can port it to other DBMS such as Postgres
or MySQL

[1] http://tdb.samba.org

But how it can be integrated in Fedora, by writing yum plug-in ?

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Old 05-03-2010, 07:10 PM
James Antill
 
Default popularity package context on fedora

On Mon, 2010-05-03 at 19:20 +0100, Athmane Madjoudj wrote:
> >
> > It's been suggested many times before, but no one has really stepped
> > forward to champion it.
> >
> > There is an rpm version being worked on by an OpenSUSE person:
> >
> > http://gitorious.org/opensuse/popcorn
> >
> > Something would need to be packaged, tested, etc.
> >
> > Then the problem becomes what data to store, how to store it.
> > It's going to be a vast amount of data, and we would need some server
> > to store it, policies around when to drop entries, etc.
> >
> > Not that I think it's a bad idea, It just needs a group of determined
> > people to work on and make it happen.
> >
>
> i have looked at the source code (C server side / Python client side), it uses
> libtdb [1] as storage back-end (a plain text format)

TDB is not "plain text" it's a key/value store, like BDB/etc.

> , i think that
> sqlite is better, and you can port it to other DBMS such as Postgres
> or MySQL
>
> [1] http://tdb.samba.org

My guess is that sqlite would be nicer though, as I'd imagine you
wouldn't want to store just key/values.

> But how it can be integrated in Fedora, by writing yum plug-in ?

I can't think why you'd want a plugin, but you'd probably need to use
the yum API ... at least so you could get data out of yumdb. The
"client" side should be truly trivial though. Dumping the installed
packages, which repos. they came from and the reason for their
install ... is probably like 10 lines of yum code.
If someone is doing this work, they'd probably do a bit more to get
more info. ... but again, it would be trivial in comparison to the work
needed on the server side (and to get people to install it etc.)

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Old 05-03-2010, 07:25 PM
Thomas Spura
 
Default popularity package context on fedora

Am Montag, den 03.05.2010, 11:52 -0600 schrieb Kevin Fenzi:
> On Sun, 2 May 2010 17:25:10 +0200
> yersinia <yersinia.spiros@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Would be interesting to have in Fedora something like this
> >
> > http://popcon.debian.org/
> >
> > ?
> >
> > Look interesting from a QA point of view.
>
> It's been suggested many times before, but no one has really stepped
> forward to champion it.
>
> There is an rpm version being worked on by an OpenSUSE person:
>
> http://gitorious.org/opensuse/popcorn
>
> Something would need to be packaged, tested, etc.
>
> Then the problem becomes what data to store, how to store it.
> It's going to be a vast amount of data, and we would need some server
> to store it, policies around when to drop entries, etc.
>
> Not that I think it's a bad idea, It just needs a group of determined
> people to work on and make it happen.

Wouldn't it be easier to let MirrorManager do that?
This way each mirror can save a counter per package and publish them
statically on the server side. To get a total amount of the data, all
counter files from all servers needs to be collected and that's it.

Maybe a bit less data, than collecting anything like in smolt...

Of course, this does not say 'how many computers out there have package
X'. Maybe it fails and one needs to download a package twice and so on.
But I think this would be a first great approximation.

Comments?

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Old 05-03-2010, 07:27 PM
Jeff Spaleta
 
Default popularity package context on fedora

On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 7:25 AM, yersinia <yersinia.spiros@gmail.com> wrote:
> Look interesting from a QA point of view.

How exactly is this interesting from a QA pov in Fedora? Smolt
profiles I can understand being useful for QA because it gives us some
ability to look for commonalities when troubleshooting hardware
problems. I'm really not sure what installed packaging information
gives up in terms of helping any QA process. Care to explain your
thoughts on this?

Debian uses popcon for a specific reason...to help in ordering the
packages on their install media sets. I'm not sure we are interested
in that sort of help...Debian releases are a vastly different
timescale than ours. We aren't going to adapt the media contents based
on popcon every 6 months.. I don't see us making a commitment to use
the data in the same way Debian uses it..so I'm left scratching my
head on how we will use it at all.

Before I would be personally willing to commit time on seeing this
implemented I would need to know what the perceived value is. I love
datamining...but I'm not a big fan of collecting data without first
having a stated reason for the collection of that information. If we
are going to collect it I expect it to be used and I expect the
initial use to be stated before we start collecting it.

And more generally speaking. I'm not keen on collecting information
unless there is a potential direct benefit for users who are providing
the information. So the reason for collection needs to be
sufficiently...user-focused...and not just because we want metrics.
Collecting the information has to be used primarily to help us provide
a better user experience or I'm going to get really pissy about it.
Fair warning.

-jef
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Old 05-03-2010, 07:29 PM
Ricky Zhou
 
Default popularity package context on fedora

On 2010-05-03 09:25:06 PM, Thomas Spura wrote:
> Wouldn't it be easier to let MirrorManager do that?
> This way each mirror can save a counter per package and publish them
> statically on the server side. To get a total amount of the data, all
> counter files from all servers needs to be collected and that's it.
>
> Maybe a bit less data, than collecting anything like in smolt...
>
> Of course, this does not say 'how many computers out there have package
> X'. Maybe it fails and one needs to download a package twice and so on.
> But I think this would be a first great approximation.
I don't think yum requests packages specifically from mirrormanager. It
gets a mirror URL from mirrormanager, then downloads everything else
directly from the mirror that it gets back.

Thanks,
Ricky
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Old 05-03-2010, 08:03 PM
Thomas Janssen
 
Default popularity package context on fedora

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 7:25 AM, yersinia <yersinia.spiros@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Look interesting from a QA point of view.
>
> How exactly is this interesting from a QA pov in Fedora? *Smolt
> profiles I can understand being useful for QA because it gives us some
> ability to look for commonalities when troubleshooting hardware
> problems. *I'm really not sure what installed packaging information
> gives up in terms of helping any QA process. Care to explain your
> thoughts on this?
>
> Debian uses popcon for a specific reason...to help in ordering the
> packages on their install media sets. *I'm not sure we are interested
> in that sort of help...Debian releases are a vastly different
> timescale than ours. We aren't going to adapt the media contents based
> on popcon every 6 months.. I don't see us making a commitment to use
> the data in the same way Debian uses it..so I'm left scratching my
> head on how we will use it at all.
>
> Before I would be personally willing to commit time on seeing this
> implemented I would need to know what the perceived value is. *I love
> datamining...but I'm not a big fan of collecting data without first
> having a stated reason for the collection of that information. *If we
> are going to collect it I expect it to be used and I expect the
> initial use to be stated before we start collecting it.

- Superb information for us packagers if and how much (of course not
the correct value) users use the software i package
- Helps to decide if a package can be easily removed from Fedora
(upstream dead, no users left, good bye is no problem)

At least two points, so rock on and implement it please



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Old 05-03-2010, 08:19 PM
yersinia
 
Default popularity package context on fedora

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 7:25 AM, yersinia <yersinia.spiros@gmail.com> wrote:

> Look interesting from a QA point of view.



How exactly is this interesting from a QA pov in Fedora? *Smolt

profiles I can understand being useful for QA because it gives us some

ability to look for commonalities when troubleshooting hardware

problems. *I'm really not sure what installed packaging information

gives up in terms of helping any QA process. Care to explain your

thoughts on this?


Sure, I can try. If one software is used* many time from many user, directly or indirectly, and it have not such many* problems
(e.g bug open on bugzilla for example ), well this* could guide to the decision of the goodness of the software and the need to
delete it or not if the maintainer does not believe to support it yet. Conversely,
if software is not used - directly or indirectly - this could
facilitate the decision to remove it, in the event that this possibility emerge. In general it depends on what someone thing of what it is the QA of a distribution: finding bugs, automate the process of finding bugs is one thing. But not alone. But it s only a personal opinion.


Regards



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Old 05-03-2010, 08:21 PM
Jeff Spaleta
 
Default popularity package context on fedora

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Thomas Janssen
<thomasj@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> - Superb information for us packagers if and how much (of course not
> the correct value) users use the software i package

It may or may not be superb information...but you haven't told me how
collecting this information is helpful to the users of my packages.
Nor have you told me exactly how we as a project would use this
information. So what if you find out that all your packages are in
0.01% the long tail of lowest popularity..how does that help you as a
maintainer? How would knowing it they were very popular than your
thought help you as a maintainer?

> - Helps to decide if a package can be easily removed from Fedora
> (upstream dead, no users left, good bye is no problem)

1) Popcon says nothing about dead upstream
2) Having zero counts in popcon does not mean unused.

You can not make effective project choices with regard to expiring
packages on popcon data that is opt-in. We have way too many niche
packages which will have zero popcon counts but are still in use by
someone. And if you are proposing that we go further than Debian and
have this as on by default?

-jef
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