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Old 04-23-2010, 05:45 PM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default Please move your ABRT bugs upstream

A while back I was complaining about how the KDE SIG handles bug
reports. One could certainly argue that closing everything UPSTREAM
doesn't help to track bugs in Fedora, but on the other hand the bugs are
at least submitted to the original developers.

When I receive a bug report I have a look at it and if it contains all
necessary data, I forward it to upstream's bug tracker. Most of the time
the developers are very thankful about the reports and especially the
backtraces. Looking at the bugs I filed I see that nearly nothing gets
forwarded upstream.

We have this nice ABRT tool now, so please let the bug reports our users
collect not be useless and forward them upstream cause that's where they
belong. We are not collecting these reports to let them rotten in our
bugzilla and get them closed by the bugzappers. This is frustrating both
for the users as well as for the developers.

Please, dear maintainers, take care of your ABRT reports and forward
them if you cannot handle them yourselves!

Thanks a lot,
Christoph

P.S.: Now that we gather all these data, do we need a general policy for
it? Should the bugzappers take care of forwarding bugs?

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Old 04-23-2010, 05:48 PM
"Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak"
 
Default Please move your ABRT bugs upstream

Christoph Wickert wrote:
> When I receive a bug report I have a look at it and if it contains all
> necessary data, I forward it to upstream's bug tracker. Most of the time
> the developers are very thankful about the reports and especially the
> backtraces. Looking at the bugs I filed I see that nearly nothing gets
> forwarded upstream.

On a related note, I couldn't set abrt on F13 to file automatically on
the gnome bugzilla. It came up with some sort of XML errors about quick
searches.

It would be nice if I could use abrt with the upstream gnome bugzilla.

- Mike
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Old 04-23-2010, 09:09 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Please move your ABRT bugs upstream

On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 19:45 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:

> P.S.: Now that we gather all these data, do we need a general policy for
> it? Should the bugzappers take care of forwarding bugs?

Not really. abrt reports are bug reports on crashing applications. The
fact that they're automatically generated doesn't really matter a lot.
Our policies should be as wide as practical, having special policies for
some bugs just because they happen to have been generated by an
automated tool doesn't seem to make sense.

Where the package in question actually has Bugzappers coverage - which
is nowhere near a majority of packages at present - this should already
be covered by the normal triage process.
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Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net

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Old 04-24-2010, 07:45 AM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default Please move your ABRT bugs upstream

Am Freitag, den 23.04.2010, 22:09 +0100 schrieb Adam Williamson:
> On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 19:45 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>
> > P.S.: Now that we gather all these data, do we need a general policy for
> > it? Should the bugzappers take care of forwarding bugs?
>
> Not really. abrt reports are bug reports on crashing applications. The
> fact that they're automatically generated doesn't really matter a lot.
> Our policies should be as wide as practical, having special policies for
> some bugs just because they happen to have been generated by an
> automated tool doesn't seem to make sense.

I don't think they should be treated different from other bug reports
because they were filed with ABRT but because
* crashing apps usually have nothing to do with Fedora or
packaging, but indicate problems in the code.
* they contain info that is very useful for upstream while most
packagers can't deal with it.
* they are hard to reproduce but easy to triage (review for
completeness and forward them).
* because without forwarding them the whole ABRT approach is
useless. We are gathering data but the reports are going to be
closed WONTFIX by the bugzappers if they are not forwarded in
time.

> Where the package in question actually has Bugzappers coverage - which
> is nowhere near a majority of packages at present - this should already
> be covered by the normal triage process.

The bug triage process mentiones upstreaming only as an "optional step"
while for backtraces upstreaming should be the default procedure. Crash
reports gathered with Dr. Konqi for example directly go to bugs.kde.org
but not to our bugzilla.

Regards,
Christoph

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Old 04-24-2010, 07:57 AM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Please move your ABRT bugs upstream

On 04/24/2010 01:15 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>
> * because without forwarding them the whole ABRT approach is
> useless. We are gathering data but the reports are going to be
> closed WONTFIX by the bugzappers if they are not forwarded in
> time.
>

There is a alternative. For some of my packages, I have asked upstream
to sign up for a Fedora account and apply to watch commits and bugs.
Since my packages are either patch free or I apply patches recommended
by upstream, they have been willing to do this. Saves me a lot of work
from having to do mechanical forwarding of bug reports. I understand
this method won't work for everyone but it is well worth considering. .

Rahul
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Old 04-24-2010, 04:19 PM
Thomas Spura
 
Default Please move your ABRT bugs upstream

Am Samstag, den 24.04.2010, 13:27 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
> On 04/24/2010 01:15 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> >
> > * because without forwarding them the whole ABRT approach is
> > useless. We are gathering data but the reports are going to be
> > closed WONTFIX by the bugzappers if they are not forwarded in
> > time.
> >
>
> There is a alternative. For some of my packages, I have asked upstream
> to sign up for a Fedora account and apply to watch commits and bugs.
> Since my packages are either patch free or I apply patches recommended
> by upstream, they have been willing to do this. Saves me a lot of work
> from having to do mechanical forwarding of bug reports. I understand
> this method won't work for everyone but it is well worth considering. .

You can't expect this from every upstream developer...
Maybe from big projects, but not every small programm with maybe just a
snipped in it.
I also restist to sign up for an account on any different distribution,
just to be able to comment to bugs.

If would be far better, if you could send the valid looking backtraces
to the upstream bugzilla via clicking 'send upstream' in our bugzilla,
but don't know if this is easy to implement.
Maybe connecting some bugzillas with openid is a better choice.

Thomas

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Old 04-24-2010, 04:44 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Please move your ABRT bugs upstream

On 04/24/2010 09:49 PM, Thomas Spura wrote:
> Am Samstag, den 24.04.2010, 13:27 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
>> There is a alternative. For some of my packages, I have asked upstream
>> to sign up for a Fedora account and apply to watch commits and bugs.
>> Since my packages are either patch free or I apply patches recommended
>> by upstream, they have been willing to do this. Saves me a lot of work
>> from having to do mechanical forwarding of bug reports. I understand
>> this method won't work for everyone but it is well worth considering. .
>>
> You can't expect this from every upstream developer...
> Maybe from big projects, but not every small programm with maybe just a
> snipped in it.

I already said that very clearly. I merely wanted package maintainers
to consider it as a option. That's all.

Rahul

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Old 04-24-2010, 05:17 PM
Thomas Spura
 
Default Please move your ABRT bugs upstream

Am Samstag, den 24.04.2010, 22:14 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
> On 04/24/2010 09:49 PM, Thomas Spura wrote:
> > Am Samstag, den 24.04.2010, 13:27 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
> >> There is a alternative. For some of my packages, I have asked upstream
> >> to sign up for a Fedora account and apply to watch commits and bugs.
> >> Since my packages are either patch free or I apply patches recommended
> >> by upstream, they have been willing to do this. Saves me a lot of work
> >> from having to do mechanical forwarding of bug reports. I understand
> >> this method won't work for everyone but it is well worth considering. .
> >>
> > You can't expect this from every upstream developer...
> > Maybe from big projects, but not every small programm with maybe just a
> > snipped in it.
>
> I already said that very clearly. I merely wanted package maintainers
> to consider it as a option. That's all.

That's true, but it sounded more like a 'solution' to the problem, and
that's unfortunately not
We should also find a solution for packages, where the maintainers
didn't consider it as a option… Unfortunately this will be the case for
the most of the packages out there.

Thomas


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Old 04-24-2010, 05:40 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Please move your ABRT bugs upstream

On 04/24/2010 10:47 PM, Thomas Spura wrote:
> That's true, but it sounded more like a 'solution' to the problem, and
> that's unfortunately not
> We should also find a solution for packages, where the maintainers
> didn't consider it as a option… Unfortunately this will be the case for
> the most of the packages out there.
>

It is redundant to mail offlist and then onlist about the same thing but
let me repeat: We don't know what solutions will or will not work
until we ask. It is always important to not merely assume but actually
try talking to upstream and see if they might be interested. You might
be in for a pleasant surprise. A lot of upstream developers are quite
cooperative if it helps improve their software and if you have
established a ongoing relationship with them. It might not work for
all cases and it is not expected either but when it it works, it helps
share the maintenance burden. Simple proclaiming that it won't work for
the majority is guess work.

Rahul
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Old 04-25-2010, 07:12 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Please move your ABRT bugs upstream

Thomas Spura wrote:

> Am Samstag, den 24.04.2010, 13:27 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
>> There is a alternative. For some of my packages, I have asked upstream
>> to sign up for a Fedora account and apply to watch commits and bugs.
>> Since my packages are either patch free or I apply patches recommended
>> by upstream, they have been willing to do this. Saves me a lot of work
>> from having to do mechanical forwarding of bug reports. I understand
>> this method won't work for everyone but it is well worth considering. .
>
> You can't expect this from every upstream developer...
> Maybe from big projects, but not every small programm with maybe just a
> snipped in it.

Actually, it's more likely to work for small projects with a single
developer who can just sign up everywhere. Large projects really need their
bugs filed in a central place so their developers can coordinate.

Kevin Kofler

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