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Old 04-25-2010, 08:00 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

I wrote:
> Those packages are also sometimes not compliant with Fedora policies such
> as usage of system libraries because any patches to use a system library
> need trademark approval.

Another one: Thunderbird STILL bundles its own Gecko instead of using the
system xulrunner, another blatant violation of our packaging guidelines.
Nothing is done to fix this issue because upstream does not care and we
can't change what they ship.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 04-25-2010, 08:04 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

I wrote:

> Those packages are also sometimes not compliant with Fedora policies such
> as usage of system libraries because any patches to use a system library
> need trademark approval. This is also just unacceptable.

PPS: And another one: xulrunner uses a bundled libffi. Another blatant
violation of our packaging guidelines. This is fixed in Debian, but we
aren't applying their patch.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 04-25-2010, 03:08 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 09:47:26 +0200,
Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@chello.at> wrote:
>
> Those packages are also sometimes not compliant with Fedora policies such as
> usage of system libraries because any patches to use a system library need
> trademark approval. This is also just unacceptable. See e.g. the Hunspell
> fiasco:

Isn't this a FESCO issue? Maybe it is time to reopen this issue?

I don't see how using Mozilla trademarks provides significant benefit
to Fedora. It seems to mostly benefit Mozilla. I don't see why we should
be breaking our rules to help them.
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Old 04-25-2010, 05:37 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

On Sun, 2010-04-25 at 10:08 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:

> I don't see how using Mozilla trademarks provides significant benefit
> to Fedora. It seems to mostly benefit Mozilla. I don't see why we should
> be breaking our rules to help them.


I think you are grossly misjudging the relative visibility and
importance of the Firefox and Fedora brands... nobody knows what Fedora
is, while most computer users will have at least heard about Firefox.


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Old 04-25-2010, 05:45 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 13:37:11 -0400,
Matthias Clasen <mclasen@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 2010-04-25 at 10:08 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>
> > I don't see how using Mozilla trademarks provides significant benefit
> > to Fedora. It seems to mostly benefit Mozilla. I don't see why we should
> > be breaking our rules to help them.
>
>
> I think you are grossly misjudging the relative visibility and
> importance of the Firefox and Fedora brands... nobody knows what Fedora
> is, while most computer users will have at least heard about Firefox.

Yeah, but "most computer users" isn't relevant. The question is about what
is relevant to Fedora users. Changing the name of Firefox will have little
affect on them since it is installed as the default web browser. Being able
to fix bugs in a timely manner on the other hand, is going to have a
significant affect on them.
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Old 04-25-2010, 06:48 PM
Chris Tyler
 
Default Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

On Sun, 2010-04-25 at 12:45 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 13:37:11 -0400,
> Matthias Clasen <mclasen@redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, 2010-04-25 at 10:08 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> >
> > > I don't see how using Mozilla trademarks provides significant benefit
> > > to Fedora. It seems to mostly benefit Mozilla. I don't see why we should
> > > be breaking our rules to help them.
> >
> >
> > I think you are grossly misjudging the relative visibility and
> > importance of the Firefox and Fedora brands... nobody knows what Fedora
> > is, while most computer users will have at least heard about Firefox.
>
> Yeah, but "most computer users" isn't relevant. The question is about what
> is relevant to Fedora users. Changing the name of Firefox will have little
> affect on them since it is installed as the default web browser. Being able
> to fix bugs in a timely manner on the other hand, is going to have a
> significant affect on them.

Wait, let's not get silly here.

Fedora has a great relationship with Mozilla. They're an amazing project
filled with people that Get It, and we can work out issues with them in
a cooperative way.

Consider:

* Mozilla is currently implementing unit tests *on Fedora* in addition
to their long-standing tests on CentOS. This benefits both communities.
See Armen's blog posts at
http://armenzg.blogspot.com/2010/04/unit-tests-for-fedora-utont-project.html and http://armenzg.blogspot.com/2010/04/one-more-fedora-unit-test-suite-visible.html

* Mozilla's brands are very well-known: They have 350+ million users
across multiple platforms (Windows, Mac, Linux), far more than we have
in Fedora. The ability to use these apps in Fedora helps to assures new
users that switching costs will be low.

* The trademark rules are there for a reason. Browser and e-mail clients
are some of the most common attack points on desktop systems, and
Mozilla needs to ensure that they don't get a black eye for some
vulnerability introduced by a distro. And distros definitely introduce
vulnerabilities: think about the Debian ssh-keygen patch fiasco as an
example. We wouldn't do something so rash, of course -- or would we? The
suggestion earlier in this thread that we patch TB and push directly to
stable does not instill confidence. (We have the freedom to turn off the
branding anytime and use the code however we want, but why give up the
marketing value? and why give up the testing?)

Let's not be brash. If we want to ship TB with one small patch, it's a
simple matter of asking.

-Chris

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Old 04-25-2010, 07:03 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

On 04/26/2010 12:18 AM, Chris Tyler wrote:
>
> Let's not be brash. If we want to ship TB with one small patch, it's a
> simple matter of asking.
>

If it was so simple, why haven't we done it already? What about patches
to use system libraries?

Rahul
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Old 04-25-2010, 08:11 PM
Chris Tyler
 
Default Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 00:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 04/26/2010 12:18 AM, Chris Tyler wrote:
> >
> > Let's not be brash. If we want to ship TB with one small patch, it's a
> > simple matter of asking.
>
> If it was so simple, why haven't we done it already?

We did, with Firefox and Pango.


> What about patches to use system libraries?

I'm sure they'd love to receive 'em!

Part of the problem here is that Mozilla's reference image for Linux is
CentOS-based -- which means old library versions. Now that they're
adding Fedora to their test farm, they're going to be getting better
exposure to current versions. Sending patches to use current libraries
upstream would be great.

I'm sure Armen would love some help with nailing the remaining Fedora
oranges -- see the tracking bug at
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=554934



Also, back to the original TB bug -- the reason this wasn't a top
priority upstream was that it wasn't showing up in the Moz crashstats
(they only had one report). We need to finish the work of tying our
crash reports into their system, something they've been asking for since
well before ABRT.

-Chris

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Old 04-25-2010, 08:20 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

On 04/26/2010 01:41 AM, Chris Tyler wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 00:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>
>> On 04/26/2010 12:18 AM, Chris Tyler wrote:
>>
>>> Let's not be brash. If we want to ship TB with one small patch, it's a
>>> simple matter of asking.
>>>
>> If it was so simple, why haven't we done it already?
>>
> We did, with Firefox and Pango.
>

Well, I was referring to Thunderbird and the fix for the crash that is
part of this thread obviously.

>> What about patches to use system libraries?
>>
> I'm sure they'd love to receive 'em!
>
>

Aren't they aware of the existing patches already?

> Also, back to the original TB bug -- the reason this wasn't a top
> priority upstream was that it wasn't showing up in the Moz crashstats
> (they only had one report). We need to finish the work of tying our
> crash reports into their system, something they've been asking for since
> well before ABRT.
>

Till then, how do we get them to prioritize downstream crashes?
Alternatively are they willing to let Fedora patch it without requiring
a rebranding? They could be be more flexible.

Rahul
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Old 04-25-2010, 08:25 PM
Mail Lists
 
Default Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

On 04/25/2010 01:37 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:

>
> I think you are grossly misjudging the relative visibility and
> importance of the Firefox and Fedora brands... nobody knows what Fedora
> is, while most computer users will have at least heard about Firefox.
>
>


Agreed a fortiori - in fact everyone I know chooses the browser and
mail client by name and definitely not by function.

If it was fedora branded then I'd guess a goodly chunk would just go
and install the upstream anyway coz they would not know nor trust the
browser called 'Fedora-Browser' or whatever.

Those wishing to use firefox will use firefox - those wishing to use
google-chrome will use it (in spite of chromium sounding similar by the
by, it was far less functional).

To be honest - i had never heard of iceweasel (yeh I get the name now)
until this thread .. but I sure have heard of firefox/thunderbird.



gene/
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