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Old 01-12-2008, 09:21 PM
"Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek"
 
Default compilation architecture

With all possible lack of respect,
David Nielsen

I'm not talking with such people.

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Old 01-12-2008, 09:31 PM
Chris Snook
 
Default compilation architecture

Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
So I can say only one thing: "fedora does something in wrong,
performance-loss way".


I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I know SuSE used to not enable
synchronization in syslogd. Yes, synchronization slows down your logging, but
it also greatly improves the chances of having a record of why a system crashed,
which is important.


I don't mean this as a knock on SuSE, and I don't think that's why you're seeing
this difference on your desktop, but it's a great example of how people with
different design priorities can make different, reasonable decisions that may
seem wrong to someone with the other priorities.


Performance is all about tradeoffs. If you actually analyze the problem, you
can usually design an intermediate solution that's good enough for people across
most of the spectrum. There will always be outliers with special needs, but you
can usually make Fedora (or openSuSE for that matter) satisfy them will a little
careful tweaking.


-- Chris

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Old 01-12-2008, 09:32 PM
"Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek"
 
Default compilation architecture

I wonder if Fedora will be so fast some day. openSUSE really was faster on my computer. But I don't know why.

I thinked it's compilation question.
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Old 01-12-2008, 09:34 PM
Chris Snook
 
Default compilation architecture

Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
I wonder if Fedora will be so fast some day. openSUSE really was faster
on my computer. But I don't know why.


I thinked it's compilation question.


I'm skeptical, but I'll believe you if you have some data. I suggest starting here:

http://people.redhat.com/wcohen/FedoraCore6OProfileTutorial.txt

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Old 01-12-2008, 09:50 PM
"Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek"
 
Default compilation architecture

2008/1/12, Chris Snook <csnook@redhat.com>:
Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
> So I can say only one thing: "fedora does something in wrong,
> performance-loss way".

I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I know SuSE used to not enable

synchronization in syslogd.**Yes, synchronization slows down your logging, but
it also greatly improves the chances of having a record of why a system crashed,
which is important.

I don't mean this as a knock on SuSE, and I don't think that's why you're seeing

this difference on your desktop, but it's a great example of how people with
different design priorities can make different, reasonable decisions that may
seem wrong to someone with the other priorities.


Performance is all about tradeoffs.**If you actually analyze the problem, you
can usually design an intermediate solution that's good enough for people across
most of the spectrum.**There will always be outliers with special needs, but you

can usually make Fedora (or openSuSE for that matter) satisfy them will a little
careful tweaking.

********-- Chris

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Fedora and openSUSE (there are openSUSE and SuSE - actuall spelling) are both using rsyslog, the newer, modern system logger.

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Old 01-12-2008, 10:51 PM
Andrew Farris
 
Default compilation architecture

Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:

Don't be silly. Try some > i386 distro, and look at the difference.
About Firefox, I wasn't using Firefox 3 from RPM, but Trunk snapshot from
Mozilla's FTP.


I've spent *considerable time* keeping fully optimized i686 mtune p4 -O3
compiled gentoo installed on a machine I also had Fedora rawhide with *my own
compiled and optimized i686 kernel and glibc*... the differences are minor at
best. I guarantee a i586 compiled SUSE install is not faster than that gentoo
build.


If you're really seeing that large a performance difference you need to be
considering legitimate sources of 'startup' time, such as already mentioned in
the thread... disk IO. How SUSE is choosing to link the libraries might be the
place to start. Are they prelinking? How. Did they maybe statically link
certain apps (like firefox that is used more than anything else)?


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Old 01-13-2008, 02:39 AM
Eric Sandeen
 
Default compilation architecture

Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
> 2008/1/12, Patrice Dumas <pertusus@free.fr <mailtoertusus@free.fr>>:
>
> On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 10:34:38PM +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
> > >
> >
> > So where Fedora just... sucks? Don't tell me "everything in Fedora is
> > perfect". Fedora is slow. It's a fact.
>
> If you want to know, search. And avoid coming with ideas, but with
> facts.

> You're funny...


No, serious. And I think Patrice is willing to believe you when you say
Fedora feels slower than OpenSuSE. But, if it's real, and you're
motivated to see it change, stick with it, and *really* find out why it
is so. First prove it: find a representative test, measure it
objectively, and if Fedora is slower, find out why by further
measurement and testing. You can be part of the solution.

For example - the Linux Battery Life Toolkit (BLTK) has 6 representative
workloads - Idle, Reader, Office, DVD Player, SW Developer, and
3D-Gamer. Maybe that could be a place to start: tweak it to measure the
time for one run of an interesting workload on a fresh boot & login on
both platforms. (This may not be the right test; "feels faster" is
probably more of a latency/responsiveness thing than a total runtime
thing, but perhaps this gets you thinking in the right direction).

Show the numbers that prove your impression, and people will probably
get much more interested.

One thing I think SuSE does is more aggressive preloading of shared
libraries:

http://sourceware.org/ml/libc-alpha/2004-07/msg00135.html

Like anything, this has tradeoffs of course. But it's an example of one
difference worth investigating. (Incidentally, in that thread, Ulrich
asks for hard numbers to show the performance gain, if any. Detect a
theme here?)

-Eric

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Old 01-13-2008, 02:09 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default compilation architecture

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:50:59 +0100
"Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek" <jakub.rusinek@gmail.com> wrote:

> Fedora and openSUSE (there are openSUSE and SuSE - actuall spelling)
> are both using rsyslog, the newer, modern system logger.

Which still has the option to sync the writes to the logger so that you
have a record of what happened that doesn't get lost at a power
outage. Fedora uses rsyslog too, which if you looked you would have
noticed.

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Old 01-13-2008, 03:09 PM
Mark
 
Default compilation architecture

2008/1/12, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek <jakub.rusinek@gmail.com>:
> do we need to support legacy cpu's by i386 compilation?
> i586 would make fedora faster even 3 times.
> difference is noticeable.
>
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You really are making a fool of yourself around here.
i can't imagine that the architecture has anything to do with performance.
but this [1] will most likely explain why openSuSE is so "much" faster
than fedora.

Fedora used to use caching (preload) as well but it wasn't offering
speed improvements on default installs. more the opposite and that why
it's not in fedora anymore. Apparently opensuse has a
better/custom/other preloading system than fedora had (which was
readahead) and that's causing the speed improvements that you noticed.

If you want to do a "fair" comparison of the speed than you must run
Firefox on fedora once first (than it gets cached) and than start
measuring the speed when you open it again. i bet it will be about
equal to opensuse. I did this test a while ago with readahead and if
the readahead files have the right paths than you will notice speed
improvements in all apps that are in the readahead list.

Fedora currently has no (correct me if i'm wrong) preloading/readahead
thing started with a default install so (nearly) nothing gets pumped
into the memory to get speed improvements. They will get there once
they are started.

So fedora isn't fast or slow. it's just working without caching
programs that improve your performance.

Perhaps it's time for fedora to look how opensuse is doing this
preloading and investigate if that can be used in Fedora 9 (or Fedora
10 if 9 is feature frozen).

[1] http://en.opensuse.org/SUPER_standard_benchmark

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Old 01-13-2008, 03:47 PM
"Naheem Zaffar"
 
Default compilation architecture

I would expect different services to also cause some performance
penalties. I doubt OpenSUSE uses SElinux for one. This is a selling
point for Fedora.

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