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Old 03-12-2010, 10:22 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

On Fri, 2010-03-12 at 22:06 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> I think that new versions should, as a general rule, be pushed, unless there
> is a good reason NOT to push a particular new version (feature regressions,
> known unfixed new bugs as found during testing, requires manual
> intervention, breaks compatibility with existing user data etc.). (And of
> course, if there are such reasons, the update MUST NOT be pushed. That's
> what distinguishes the updates from Rawhide, and it's an important
> distinction, because it defines stability from the user's point of view.)

Fundamental point of view difference. You take the point of view of
push everything all the time /unless/ there is a good enough reason not
to.

Others take the point of view of not updating anything unless there is a
good enough reason /to/.

--
Jesse Keating
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:52 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

Jesse Keating wrote:
> Fundamental point of view difference. You take the point of view of
> push everything all the time /unless/ there is a good enough reason not
> to.
>
> Others take the point of view of not updating anything unless there is a
> good enough reason /to/.

Right. "Fundamental point of view difference" indeed. But the former is the
point of view many of our users defend, too. :-) See e.g. the results of
Adam Williamson's poll.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 03-12-2010, 11:02 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 00:52 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Jesse Keating wrote:
> > Fundamental point of view difference. You take the point of view of
> > push everything all the time /unless/ there is a good enough reason not
> > to.
> >
> > Others take the point of view of not updating anything unless there is a
> > good enough reason /to/.
>
> Right. "Fundamental point of view difference" indeed. But the former is the
> point of view many of our users defend, too. :-) See e.g. the results of
> Adam Williamson's poll.
>
> Kevin Kofler
>

s/many/some/. We have absolutely no scientific data that demonstrates
what any measure of our userbase defend or don't defend. What we have
is data that /some/ users prefer lots and lots of updates. We also have
data that /some/ users prefer a more conservative approach to updates to
our stable releases. We also have a vision statement from the Fedora
Board that reads to me like a vision for conservative updates to our
stable release.

While it's true that some of our users appreciate the rapid stream of
updates, we may have to lose those users, or redirect them to other
avenues to rapid updates within the Fedora project and release stream.

--
Jesse Keating
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Old 03-12-2010, 11:14 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

Jesse Keating wrote:
> While it's true that some of our users appreciate the rapid stream of
> updates, we may have to lose those users, or redirect them to other
> avenues to rapid updates within the Fedora project and release stream.

And why would we want to lose a huge number, which appears to be clearly in
the majority according to the only approximation to numbers we have, of our
current users, just to implement some vision which basically amounts to
copying what all the other mainstream distributions do, giving users no
choice?

Kevin Kofler

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Old 03-12-2010, 11:35 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 01:14 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Jesse Keating wrote:
> > While it's true that some of our users appreciate the rapid stream of
> > updates, we may have to lose those users, or redirect them to other
> > avenues to rapid updates within the Fedora project and release stream.
>
> And why would we want to lose a huge number, which appears to be clearly in
> the majority according to the only approximation to numbers we have, of our
> current users, just to implement some vision which basically amounts to
> copying what all the other mainstream distributions do, giving users no
> choice?
>
> Kevin Kofler
>

There is clearly no reason to continue this conversation with you Kevin.
We are just going to disagree.

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Old 03-13-2010, 01:43 AM
Mail Lists
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

I like fedora beacause it is both up to date and stable.

I also am admin for a several non tech users - and frankly if there is
an Aunt Tilly out there using fedora she never installed it - one of us
did - and we maintain it - and we speak for Aunt Tilly.

And if you ask Aunt Tilly - certainly all -my- Aunt Tilly's - they'll
all say ask me - not her.

So this user bias is far less than some think.

Then there are those who are newish but dont have enormous experience
(cousin Bob) - they seek the experienced for help - whether in person
(frequent for me) or via forums etc.

So once again, the experienced users - those who frequent this list,
their opinions should carry more weight than the Aunt Tilly's and the
cousin Bob's.

gene
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Old 03-13-2010, 01:45 AM
Josh Stone
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> Anyone know of a distro that doesn't lag like Ubuntu/NewFedora? Is
> Mandrake kept up to date, or do they also make you wait months for new
> versions? Because I am *seriously* considering switching right now...

Arch?
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Old 03-13-2010, 07:54 AM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 07:05 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

> As usual, a pragmatical solution/compromise would be inbetween.

This is the fallacy of the middle way. it's simply not always true. If I
say I'd like to steal $100 from you, and you'd prefer me not to steal
any of your money, is the 'obvious compromise' that I steal $50 the best
solution? Just a random example; point is, a compromise is never
automatically the right solution; it can go wrong because it doesn't
manage to capture the good point of either proposal, or because one
proposal is so wrong that it's still bad even if you only have half of
it.

The second thing doesn't apply to this case, but the first certainly
could. It's not immediately obvious that a compromise between 'lots of
adventurous updates' and 'only conservative updates' would be the best
solution for anyone. After all, we sort of have a compromise right now -
some maintainers ship adventurous updates, some ship conservative - and
that doesn't seem to be making everyone happy.
--
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Old 03-14-2010, 03:43 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

On 03/14/2010 10:13 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Peter Hutterer wrote:
>
>> Isn't there a mere RISK to lose 70-80% of our users if we do _not_
>> implement the changes as well? Especially given the chance that the poll
>> did not represent a significant user sample?
>>
> Not a very credible one, given that those users are happily using Fedora as
> it is now!

Can we drop the absolutes which are clearly not true? Some users clearly
are not. Otherwise we wouldn't been having such length discussions on
this topic. I particularly don't like that there is no enforced policy
on updates whatsoever and parts of Fedora acts differently from another.

Rahul

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Old 03-14-2010, 03:52 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

On 03/14/2010 10:20 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>
>> So the right solution is to let you do your own disruptive changes in
>> stable so you don't have to deal with other people disruptive changes in
>> rawhide?
>>
> "My" changes, or really KDE SIG's changes, are NOT disruptive.
>

I am sorry but that has been proved to be not true multiple times in the
past. It is not the question of your dedication or the amount of work
you put into it. Really, you cannot expect to push such major changes
and not cause regressions for some users at the best. We have done
reasonably well at times but it has always been a risky proposition.

Rahul
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