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Old 03-14-2010, 10:23 PM
Peter Boy
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

Am Sonntag, den 14.03.2010, 19:33 +0100 schrieb Mathieu Bridon:
> Some others arrive and say hi, their first update (the 300MB one you
> get when installing 2 months after release) breaks something, they
> leave (some will not even finish downloading such a huge amount and
> leave).
>
> Finally, even long time users can grow tired of having to fiddle with
> their system after an update, and leave, even if they haven't until
> now.

I'm really puzzled.

The group which desires "more stable" releases heavily doubts the
reliability of Adams poll.

The same proponents heavily claim "broken updates", one would have to
fix one's system after *each* update, ... (see above).

I guess: We don't have any valid statistics about it, either!

(And given my personal experiences: There must be another distro named
Fedora around, which is updatable in most cases without any issues. I'll
try to find out, where I got my Fedora from ...)


Peter



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Old 03-15-2010, 02:23 AM
Stephen John Smoogen
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Rex Dieter <rdieter@math.unl.edu> wrote:
> Peter Hutterer wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 09:14:48PM -0700, Orion Poplawski wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, March 13, 2010 4:58 pm, Peter Hutterer wrote:
>>> > Isn't there a mere RISK to lose 70-80% of our users if we do _not_
>>> > implement
>>> > the changes as well? Especially given the chance that the poll did not
>>> > represent a significant user sample?
>>>
>>> How many users do we need?
>>
>> sorry, I'm not sure I understand the question. Which user number are you
>> referring to?
>
> I'd venture he meant in response to your "the poll did not represent a
> significant user sample" comment. *So, how many users are needed to make it
> representative?

Well you would want to poll a group that you knew had been active for
a while, and had some certainty that they were unique individuals. I
know several people who register 3-4 accounts on forums so that they
can vote more often or play games. I don't know how many people do
that but the risk usually makes these sorts of polls have lower
confidence levels to around 50%. [EG a statician looking at the data
would say that it is no more valid than flipping a coin.] This is NOT
to say that the poll end data is in the end wrong just that trying to
be more confident in the data (whether it was that Fast, Slow, or
Cowboy Bob) can not be determined. So if the data had shown that
people wanted conservative, I would hopefully be saying the same
things if people said it proved their point.

A more valid poll might be possible by the following method:

If we assumed that the people who had been registered in FAS for over
6 months and had signed the CLA met the first two definitions, you
would need to randomly select about 3000 of them and have at least 600
answer the poll to have (i think) a 90% confidence level in the poll.
I think the questions need to be simple yes/no ones to qualify for the
'easiest' tests, multiple choice results require something like
multiple asking worded slightly different or some such thing. Again
this is from a class I took 20 years ago so a real mathematician,
psychologist, etc would know better.

I also do not want to imply or say that this is wanted/possible etc.
There would be a whole range of issues that would have to get approval
or checked to see if assumptions were valid.

--
Stephen J Smoogen.

Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp. Or what's a heaven for?
-- Robert Browning
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:09 AM
Matěj Cepl
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

Dne 14.3.2010 09:59, Jon Masters napsal(a):
> Somewhat shockingly, some people do use Fedora for day to day stuff.

Don't worry they will stop soon. After all (quoting one post which I am
sorry got burried somewhere down the thread leaves):

$ Contributors are what makes Fedora grow and advance as a project.
$ Users are only benefitting from our (the contributors') work as a
$ side effect.

We should all think about this sentence and its consequences.

Matěj
--
http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/, Jabber: mcepl<at>ceplovi.cz
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC

He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for
support, rather than illumination.
-- Andrew Lang

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Old 03-15-2010, 01:20 PM
Thomas Janssen
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Matěj Cepl <mcepl@redhat.com> wrote:
> Dne 14.3.2010 19:29, Kevin Kofler napsal(a):
>> Nonsense. There ARE users who want this kind of updates. Please don't
>> generalize your own opinion to ALL users in that way. "no" is a strong word!
>
> And yes, these are users who have subscribed to updates-testing. My wife
> bitterly complains about the amount of updates she is getting through
> F12/updates already, so I will have to switch her to something more
> reasonable for normal users (probably CentOS 6, when it will become
> available).

Would it be ok for your wife to run Fedora N-1 with only security- and
small bugfix-updates?
That would mean, Fedora N-current has the updates people like me loves
and Fedora N-1 (right now F-11) has only small updates like your wife
loves. Would also mean to be one release behind (nothing bad for
people who want less updates IMO).

--
LG Thomas

Dubium sapientiae initium
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:27 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

On Sun, 2010-03-14 at 21:23 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
>
> If we assumed that the people who had been registered in FAS for over
> 6 months and had signed the CLA met the first two definitions, you
> would need to randomly select about 3000 of them and have at least 600
> answer the poll to have (i think) a 90% confidence level in the poll.
> I think the questions need to be simple yes/no ones to qualify for the
> 'easiest' tests, multiple choice results require something like
> multiple asking worded slightly different or some such thing. Again
> this is from a class I took 20 years ago so a real mathematician,
> psychologist, etc would know better.
>
>

This unfortunately would also be a very selective set of folks, as it
wouldn't include any of our pure users, who aren't contributors via FAS.

--
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Old 03-15-2010, 08:47 PM
Stephen John Smoogen
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 2010-03-14 at 21:23 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
>>
>> If we assumed that the people who had been registered in FAS for over
>> 6 months and had signed the CLA met the first two definitions, you
>> would need to randomly select about 3000 of them and have at least 600
>> answer the poll to have (i think) a 90% confidence level in the poll.
>> I think the questions need to be simple yes/no ones to qualify for the
>> 'easiest' tests, multiple choice results require something like
>> multiple asking worded slightly different or some such thing. Again
>> this is from a class I took 20 years ago so a real mathematician,
>> psychologist, etc would know better.
>>
>>
>
> This unfortunately would also be a very selective set of folks, as it
> wouldn't include any of our pure users, who aren't contributors via FAS.
>

You are correct, a survey of them would not be possible to extend to
an entire population unless the survey was larger. However one could
consider it a poll survey of people who have shown an strong
interest in Fedora. Survey's are in the end only good for certain
things.. figuring out what kinds of groups you are attracting is
something a survey can help answer. However deciding which elevator
algorithm to use in the kernel.. they are not.



--
Stephen J Smoogen.

Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp. Or what's a heaven for?
-- Robert Browning
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:07 AM
Oscar Bacho
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

There is one "good" update of gstreamer with include gstreamer-bad-free.

And it has file conflict with gstreamer-bad of rpm-fusion and with gstreamer-good

It seem to me that fedora needs a stable update policy.



Go ahead Jesse


Oscar Bacho

P.D. I'm a user

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Old 03-16-2010, 05:24 AM
Oscar Bacho
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

2010/3/16 Oscar Bacho <ob.system@gmail.com>

There is one "good" update of gstreamer with include gstreamer-bad-free.

And it has file conflict with gstreamer-bad of rpm-fusion and with gstreamer-good

It seem to me that fedora needs a stable update policy.




Go ahead Jesse


Oscar Bacho

P.D. I'm a user


I'm on "stable F12"

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Old 03-16-2010, 05:34 AM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Stable Release Updates types proposal (was Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2010-03-11)

On 03/16/2010 11:54 AM, Oscar Bacho wrote:
>
>
> 2010/3/16 Oscar Bacho <ob.system@gmail.com <mailtob.system@gmail.com>>
>
> There is one "good" update of gstreamer with include
> gstreamer-bad-free.
>
> And it has file conflict with gstreamer-bad of rpm-fusion and with
> gstreamer-good
>
> It seem to me that fedora needs a stable update policy.
>
>
> Go ahead Jesse
>
>
> Oscar Bacho
>
> P.D. I'm a user
>
>
> I'm on "stable F12"

Updates policy won't necessarily help in this case. AutoQA might but
then cross repo coordination is at times tricky esp with much less
people taking care of administration of third party repos.

Rahul
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