PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey
 

On 03/09/2010 06:51 AM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> On 03/08/2010 11:45 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> And why does Fedora need to know about this?
>
> Maybe for some GSoC ideas? I don't know. Has Fedora (or a project like
> this) ever had such data before?
>
>>
>> Fedora is what its contributors make it and what its government
>> allows its contributors to make it.
>
> Are you saying we should ban RFE bugs then?
Hmm? Except that I feel this current FESCO is doing its best to drive
contributors away, I don't recall having said this.

> Your statement seems a little hypocritical.
Why? No idea what you are referring to.

My point is: Whatever results such polls will result into (e.g. "Ponies
please") and whatever this FESCO decides, is largely irrelevant to those
contributors who are doing the "dirty packaging works". If the outcome
fits into "these individuals' interests" they will take them into
account, if not, they will not and will leave this FESCO and Fedora alone.

Ralf

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PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey
 

On 03/09/2010 05:45 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 03/09/2010 06:37 AM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
>
>> Correct me if I am wrong, but right now the Fedora project knows little
>> to nothing about its user base as a whole from a scientific perspective.
> And why does Fedora need to know about this?
>
> Fedora is what its contributors make it and what its government allows
> its contributors to make it.

Well. I'm assuming that Fedora's contributors might have some interest
in what Fedora's users think about it. Crazy idea, I know...

Andre.
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PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey
 

On Tuesday 09 March 2010 06:05:32 Seth Vidal wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Mar 2010, Jon Masters wrote:
> > Folks,
> >
> > I will propose this to FESCo through their normal channels.
> >
> > My proposal is that we create a "Fedora User Survey" and create a link
> > on the fp.o website with a few very simple questions. One of those
> > questions would be what users think about the current update policy,
> > using plain (and as non-bias as possible) language to explain.
> >
> > This isn't an attempt to undermine FESCo, but you have to remember that
> > users don't typically directly vote for FESCo or otherwise get involved
> > in big decisions like this that will affect them. The developers do
> > this, and we are motivated by our own experiences. While I'm not looking
> > to create another California referendum process for Fedora, I do think
> > occasional (maybe annual) surveys for user input would be useful.
>
> -1
>
> It sure looks like a californian referendum process. Let me make this
> abundantly clear: I have ZERO interest in developing a distro which is
> driven by mob vote of whomever happens to be on the internet.

Ok, but then we're stuck in infinite cycle. Some people want to change update
policies/target of Fedora because of users, we don't know who are our user and
what they want. Now someone wants to know who are our users/what our users
really want, we don't want to know it, because we don't want to do Fedora for
what users want or need, because we're developing Fedora for us. Funny ;-)

I'm not saying - do survey and do whatever users wants... But do survey, to
know our users, our target audience. Then we can start talk if this target
audience is that one we want or we can easily decide, that we're not
interested in this target audience and we can start again from scratch! I
still believe in - more involvement in Fedora, more decision making. But it
does not mean ignoring users/community and do decisions from top and small
group of some people.

Jaroslav

> -sv

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PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey
 

On Mon, 8 Mar 2010, Michael Cronenworth wrote:

> On 03/08/2010 11:05 PM, Seth Vidal wrote:
>> -1
>>
>> It sure looks like a californian referendum process. Let me make this
>> abundantly clear: I have ZERO interest in developing a distro which is
>> driven by mob vote of whomever happens to be on the internet.
>>
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, but right now the Fedora project knows little
> to nothing about its user base as a whole from a scientific perspective.
> Starting to gather user-generated (instead of system, such as smolt)
> will be a benefit, IMHO. You could easily rm -rf the results in the end.
> I'm not of the survey type either, but it would be interesting (to say
> the least) to see if anyone would even take it.

I have no doubt people would take it. But it would be self-selecting
and/or filled with trolling.

you have been on websites that allow anonymous posting, right? You know
what happens to them?

-sv


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PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey
 

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:

> Ok, but then we're stuck in infinite cycle. Some people want to change update
> policies/target of Fedora because of users, we don't know who are our user and
> what they want. Now someone wants to know who are our users/what our users
> really want, we don't want to know it, because we don't want to do Fedora for
> what users want or need, because we're developing Fedora for us. Funny ;-)
>

Actually, I want to make the update policies so that we have fewer BROKEN
things.

-sv

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PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey
 

On Tuesday 09 March 2010 14:02:07 Seth Vidal wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> > Ok, but then we're stuck in infinite cycle. Some people want to change
> > update policies/target of Fedora because of users, we don't know who are
> > our user and what they want. Now someone wants to know who are our
> > users/what our users really want, we don't want to know it, because we
> > don't want to do Fedora for what users want or need, because we're
> > developing Fedora for us. Funny ;-)
>
> Actually, I want to make the update policies so that we have fewer BROKEN
> things.

With same logic you can say less updates - fewer broken things (regressions,
yes) or less updates - more broken things (fixes, features)... Especially with
current style of Fedora development model and FESCo allowing unfinished
features entering final release...

Jaroslav

> -sv

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PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey
 

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010 12:23:42 +0100, Jaroslav wrote:

> Some people want to change update
> policies/target of Fedora because of users,

Not sure this is true.

> we don't know who are our user and
> what they want.

Really? The users I see want "stuff that works". Preferably, they want the
stuff to work already after downloading and installing from a DVD image.
And they don't like it if an advertised Fedora release doesn't work out of
the box, whereas the previous release worked fine. And they don't like it,
if it takes many weeks for bug-fix updates to trickle in, while some
updates make things worse. I see users who are happy when they don't need
to submit problem reports. They don't care whether it is the very latest
or a somewhat older version, because they are consumers who expect the
package maintainers to create a product that works and in many cases they
don't even monitor upstream's release habits. If there is a reason not to
ship a latest release of some software, most users do accept that.

> Now someone wants to know who are our users/what our users
> really want, we don't want to know it, because we don't want to do Fedora for
> what users want or need, because we're developing Fedora for us. Funny ;-)

If you manage to ask a sufficiently large sample, great. Go ahead and do
it. Just don't set up a poll that would mostly be frequented by
hardcore-users, who are bored without a daily flood of 50+ updates and a
daily kernel update, while the majority of users doesn't participate. It
reminds me of distribution popularity polls, where that dist comes out on
top whose forum/mailing-list/blog readers are pestered the most.
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PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey
 

Seth Vidal pÃ*Å¡e v Út 09. 03. 2010 v 08:02 -0500:
>
> On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
>
> > Ok, but then we're stuck in infinite cycle. Some people want to change update
> > policies/target of Fedora because of users, we don't know who are our user and
> > what they want. Now someone wants to know who are our users/what our users
> > really want, we don't want to know it, because we don't want to do Fedora for
> > what users want or need, because we're developing Fedora for us. Funny ;-)
> >
>
> Actually, I want to make the update policies so that we have fewer BROKEN
> things.

Ok, we all want to minimalize broken things, but please forgive my maybe
stupid question - how many broken things are there actually or had been
in the past? Don't you want to complicate live of thousands of packages
just because only few tens made troubles?


Dan

PS: I don't have the statistics so the numbers are pure guess.

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PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey
 

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:

> On Tuesday 09 March 2010 14:02:07 Seth Vidal wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
>>> Ok, but then we're stuck in infinite cycle. Some people want to change
>>> update policies/target of Fedora because of users, we don't know who are
>>> our user and what they want. Now someone wants to know who are our
>>> users/what our users really want, we don't want to know it, because we
>>> don't want to do Fedora for what users want or need, because we're
>>> developing Fedora for us. Funny ;-)
>>
>> Actually, I want to make the update policies so that we have fewer BROKEN
>> things.
>
> With same logic you can say less updates - fewer broken things (regressions,
> yes) or less updates - more broken things (fixes, features)... Especially with
> current style of Fedora development model and FESCo allowing unfinished
> features entering final release...
>

I'm sure with the same logic I can say a lot of things.
What I said was " I want fewer broken things."

-sv

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PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey
 

On Tuesday 09 March 2010 14:35:49 Dan Horák wrote:
> Seth Vidal pÃ*Å¡e v Út 09. 03. 2010 v 08:02 -0500:
> > On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> > > Ok, but then we're stuck in infinite cycle. Some people want to change
> > > update policies/target of Fedora because of users, we don't know who
> > > are our user and what they want. Now someone wants to know who are our
> > > users/what our users really want, we don't want to know it, because we
> > > don't want to do Fedora for what users want or need, because we're
> > > developing Fedora for us. Funny ;-)
> >
> > Actually, I want to make the update policies so that we have fewer BROKEN
> > things.
>
> Ok, we all want to minimalize broken things, but please forgive my maybe
> stupid question - how many broken things are there actually or had been
> in the past? Don't you want to complicate live of thousands of packages
> just because only few tens made troubles?
>

Another question - how many broken things we shipped in release that could be
fixed by updates? We shipped lot of unfinished, feature incomplete stuff in
history...

Nobody can't say I'm for shipping broken stuff - for release, updates etc...
I'm usually the one who says no for incomplete/broken stuff ;-)

But please stop this. What I wanted to point out is that there ARE users out
there and we should know, WHO are our users. Or we can take a risk and set
target audience so we would know it or we can be all-catch distro but then we
have to behave like we are all-catch... In this case you know - we need
compromise...

Jaroslav

> Dan
>
> PS: I don't have the statistics so the numbers are pure guess.

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