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Old 03-09-2010, 02:03 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Matthias Clasen wrote:

> On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 08:51 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote:
>> Here's the camps I see:
>>
>> 1. One group wants us to aim for mom/pop/grandma/desktop users - the
>> apple market or what ubuntu aims for.
>>
>> 2. one group wants us to aim exclusively for the bleeding edge open
>> source developer market.
>>
>> 3. one group wants us to aim for the admin/experienced user who wants
>> newer things but doesn't have time nor interest to fight with lots of broken things.
>
> That is one way to phrase it. But really, the first is not just a
> 'marked', it is everybody. Who wouldn't want a system that works without
> much of a hassle and lets me do what I want to do without requiring
> constant attention to breakage and changes ?

I like systems I can control and influence. The system targeted in #1 is
not that.

-sv

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Old 03-09-2010, 02:11 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tue, Mar 09, 2010 at 08:51:06AM -0500, Seth Vidal wrote:
> 1. One group wants us to aim for mom/pop/grandma/desktop users - the
> apple market or what ubuntu aims for.
>
> 2. one group wants us to aim exclusively for the bleeding edge open
> source developer market.
>
> 3. one group wants us to aim for the admin/experienced user who wants
> newer things but doesn't have time nor interest to fight with lots of
> broken things.

Aiming at #1 means that every single new student and researcher at the
school where I work comes in asking for Ubuntu -- even if one could make a
very persuasive case that these users probably fit better into #2 and #3.


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Old 03-09-2010, 02:17 PM
Konstantin Ryabitsev
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Seth Vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> Here's the camps I see:
>
> 1. One group wants us to aim for mom/pop/grandma/desktop users - the
> apple market or what ubuntu aims for.
>
> 2. one group wants us to aim exclusively for the bleeding edge open
> source developer market.
>
> 3. one group wants us to aim for the admin/experienced user who wants
> newer things but doesn't have time nor interest to fight with lots of broken things.

4. one group who don't really care about distro wars but use Fedora
because this way they know what will be in RHEL/CentOS, which is what
they use for "serious work" on their servers.

I think it's a fairly large but mostly quiet group, actually.

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Konstantin Ryabitsev
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Old 03-09-2010, 02:17 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Matthew Miller wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 09, 2010 at 08:51:06AM -0500, Seth Vidal wrote:
>> 1. One group wants us to aim for mom/pop/grandma/desktop users - the
>> apple market or what ubuntu aims for.
>>
>> 2. one group wants us to aim exclusively for the bleeding edge open
>> source developer market.
>>
>> 3. one group wants us to aim for the admin/experienced user who wants
>> newer things but doesn't have time nor interest to fight with lots of
>> broken things.
>
> Aiming at #1 means that every single new student and researcher at the
> school where I work comes in asking for Ubuntu -- even if one could make a
> very persuasive case that these users probably fit better into #2 and #3.

I think the problem is how far we can go. If we slice up the things that
matter to group 3 trying to hit group 1 we alienate a number of the folks
who are most able to make things in fedora work.

-sv

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Old 03-09-2010, 02:18 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On 03/09/2010 03:57 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 08:51 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote:
>
>> We get the users we aim for.
>
> Not really true. We don't aim at all, and we only get the users that can
> bear to stay with us...
>
>> Here's the camps I see:
>>
>> 1. One group wants us to aim for mom/pop/grandma/desktop users - the
>> apple market or what ubuntu aims for.
>>
>> 2. one group wants us to aim exclusively for the bleeding edge open
>> source developer market.
>>
>> 3. one group wants us to aim for the admin/experienced user who wants
>> newer things but doesn't have time nor interest to fight with lots of broken things.
>
> That is one way to phrase it. But really, the first is not just a
> 'marked', it is everybody. Who wouldn't want a system that works without
> much of a hassle and lets me do what I want to do without requiring
> constant attention to breakage and changes ?

Exactly - These groups are not mutually exclusive. They are one and the
same user-group.

> And if you don't have anything to offer to the first group, the second
> group is going to loose interest too. Why would somebody want to develop
> software on a system that has no users ? If the users are all using
> other OSes, then it only makes sense to develop the software on those
> OSes. I cannot imagine anybody wanting to develop apps on or for Fedora
> in its current state.

Agreed. Fedora's problem is it not being suitable for any of these
groups - Primary cause too many bugs.

Ralf
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Old 03-09-2010, 02:21 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tue, Mar 09, 2010 at 10:17:21AM -0500, Seth Vidal wrote:
> > Aiming at #1 means that every single new student and researcher at the
> > school where I work comes in asking for Ubuntu -- even if one could make a
> > very persuasive case that these users probably fit better into #2 and #3.
> I think the problem is how far we can go. If we slice up the things that
> matter to group 3 trying to hit group 1 we alienate a number of the folks
> who are most able to make things in fedora work.

Yeah, I don't have an answer. But I think it's not true that we get the
users we develop for -- we're missing out on a lot of them because of
matters of perception.




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Old 03-09-2010, 02:23 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tue, Mar 09, 2010 at 10:17:01AM -0500, Konstantin Ryabitsev wrote:
> 4. one group who don't really care about distro wars but use Fedora
> because this way they know what will be in RHEL/CentOS, which is what
> they use for "serious work" on their servers.

I actually use RHEL on my servers because I know that one day, in the
distant future, RHEL 6 will come out and have most of the great work I've
become accustomed to from my Fedora desktop. Just sayin'.




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Computing & Information Technology
Harvard School of Engineering & Applied Sciences
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Old 03-09-2010, 02:26 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Konstantin Ryabitsev wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Seth Vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>> Here's the camps I see:
>>
>> 1. One group wants us to aim for mom/pop/grandma/desktop users - the
>> apple market or what ubuntu aims for.
>>
>> 2. one group wants us to aim exclusively for the bleeding edge open
>> source developer market.
>>
>> 3. one group wants us to aim for the admin/experienced user who wants
>> newer things but doesn't have time nor interest to fight with lots of broken things.
>
> 4. one group who don't really care about distro wars but use Fedora
> because this way they know what will be in RHEL/CentOS, which is what
> they use for "serious work" on their servers.
>
> I think it's a fairly large but mostly quiet group, actually.
>

Agreed.

-sv

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Old 03-09-2010, 02:30 PM
Terry Barnaby
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On 03/09/2010 02:57 PM, Al Dunsmuir wrote:
> Hello Seth,
>
> Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 9:37:26 AM, you wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Al Dunsmuir wrote:
>
>>> Hello Seth,
>>>
>>> Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 9:23:00 AM, you wrote:
>>>
>>>> Your primary server runs fedora? May I ask why?
>>>> -sv
>>>
>>> I have limited time to do system installs and maintenance. Sticking
>>> with one distribution helps keep that sane. I have a dual boot XP +
>>> Ubuntu machine that I do some play with, but I find it strange, having
>>> used Fedora since FC3.
>>>
>>> If Fedora isn't up to the task of handling the basic services that my
>>> server provides (dns, dhcp, samba, ftp and http) for my home office
>>> with multiple PCs, what good is it?
>
>> Handle the tasks? Sure fedora can - but it doesn't have the updates
>> lifespan for a server.
>> -sv
>
> Until F8, I had no problems with the 6 month release cycle. I'd
> update my desktop, then update my server once I was confident that
> everything was stable. I don't mind if it works.
>
> I prefer to work on the server in X. The massive X changes over the
> last few releases introduced problems were for a good cause (but at
> the time were painful). I expect that to be fairly settled down, as I
> don't run any applications that require 3d.
>
> Bind seems to messy by nature. Starting in F10, configuration changes
> were required each release. These were not necessarily all documented
> (selinux, chroot not working/recommended). Opening problem reports in
> Bugzilla helped to get those addressed.
>
> I'd like to get back to where Fedora "just works", so I could have
> some time to do development work in areas that would help move Fedora
> ahead.
>
> Al
>
I totally agree. The 6 month Fedora cycle with to much emphasis very
latest and in a lot of cases superficially tested packages is turning
me and I am sure more users off Fedora by the day. If there are not
enough "real users" then very little "real testing" will get done and Fedora
will not even be useful as a RedHat test platform.

There appear to be few major changes happening to the core Linux kernel
API and the system library API's etc (Graphics may be an exception
although this is a mess at the moment). So why do we really need a new
full release this often ? Why not try and keep the base system for at
least 12 months with 12.1,12.2 etc releases ?

To get stable, usable systems thought and stability at the various API
levels are essential. The quick release cycle where a lot of API's can
change I think is detrimental to this and to getting third party
software available.

There should be no problem having a multilevel package repositories
effectively allowing Fedora spins for experimenting with and testing
advances in particular directions (like rawhide we could have
graphics-testing etc).

There has to be a balance between speed of new releases and usability.
I personally thought the old 12 month RedHat Linux release cycle was about
right.

Terry
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Old 03-09-2010, 02:49 PM
Matt Domsch
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tue, Mar 09, 2010 at 03:30:37PM +0000, Terry Barnaby wrote:
> I personally thought the old 12 month RedHat Linux release cycle was about
> right.

RHL was also on a 6 month release cycle.

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