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Old 03-09-2010, 12:51 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:

>
> Another question - how many broken things we shipped in release that could be
> fixed by updates? We shipped lot of unfinished, feature incomplete stuff in
> history...
>
> Nobody can't say I'm for shipping broken stuff - for release, updates etc...
> I'm usually the one who says no for incomplete/broken stuff ;-)
>
> But please stop this. What I wanted to point out is that there ARE users out
> there and we should know, WHO are our users. Or we can take a risk and set
> target audience so we would know it or we can be all-catch distro but then we
> have to behave like we are all-catch... In this case you know - we need
> compromise...
>

We get the users we aim for.

The issue at hand is the type of users we want to aim for.

Here's the camps I see:

1. One group wants us to aim for mom/pop/grandma/desktop users - the
apple market or what ubuntu aims for.

2. one group wants us to aim exclusively for the bleeding edge open
source developer market.

3. one group wants us to aim for the admin/experienced user who wants
newer things but doesn't have time nor interest to fight with lots of broken things.


What is being discussed, imo, is not which of these groups represents our
current users but which of these groups are we interested in serving and
which set of policies and rules will help us serve them best.

-sv

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Old 03-09-2010, 01:02 PM
Jaroslav Reznik
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tuesday 09 March 2010 14:51:06 Seth Vidal wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> > Another question - how many broken things we shipped in release that
> > could be fixed by updates? We shipped lot of unfinished, feature
> > incomplete stuff in history...
> >
> > Nobody can't say I'm for shipping broken stuff - for release, updates
> > etc... I'm usually the one who says no for incomplete/broken stuff ;-)
> >
> > But please stop this. What I wanted to point out is that there ARE users
> > out there and we should know, WHO are our users. Or we can take a risk
> > and set target audience so we would know it or we can be all-catch
> > distro but then we have to behave like we are all-catch... In this case
> > you know - we need compromise...
>
> We get the users we aim for.
>
> The issue at hand is the type of users we want to aim for.
>
> Here's the camps I see:
>
> 1. One group wants us to aim for mom/pop/grandma/desktop users - the
> apple market or what ubuntu aims for.
>
> 2. one group wants us to aim exclusively for the bleeding edge open
> source developer market.
>
> 3. one group wants us to aim for the admin/experienced user who wants
> newer things but doesn't have time nor interest to fight with lots of
> broken things.
>
>
> What is being discussed, imo, is not which of these groups represents our
> current users but which of these groups are we interested in serving and
> which set of policies and rules will help us serve them best.

100% correct, I agree! So, setting update policy (and of course release and
other policies) should be done after setting target audience. There is risk
that we will loose one group and we can't compete in other group market we
target. But that's life, another distribution can start again and again ;-)

But let's do the first step - I totally understand why board want's target
audience (but I'm a little worried that we do too big step from our current
nice living surface to swamp ;-).

Jaroslav

> -sv

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Office: +420 532 294 275
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Old 03-09-2010, 01:20 PM
Al Dunsmuir
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

Hello Seth,

Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 8:38:44 AM, you wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:

>> On Tuesday 09 March 2010 14:02:07 Seth Vidal wrote:
> I'm sure with the same logic I can say a lot of things.
> What I said was " I want fewer broken things."

> -sv

Seth,

The problem is that when things do get broken in a stable release, the
updates that fix the problem often only get released in the next
release.

When I installed F11, two of my systems ran fine for the install and
those updates available at time of installation. One of those was an
Intel system which only was able to do graphical install with the
final release (not any of the snapshots before release). The other was
an older ATI board.

Both systems were borked by X11 updates that came one week after the
GA. I was able to get both system running vesa-mode with help from the
mailing list. I dutifully opened bug reports... which I updated
regularly. It took on the order of three months until things got back
into good enough shape to run native X again. Part of that was because
I'd upgraded my monitor and replaced the built-in Intel with an ATI
card (needed to support a widescreen LCD at 1920x1200).

I am worried that the direction a number of folks is taking would
place excessive focus on minimizing risk due to changes. Stuff
happens, so in complex areas such as X my experience of a "stable
release" being broken a week after release was unpleasant but not all
that unexpected. What was unexpected was that it would be acceptable
for this regression to be left unaddressed for months, with all of the
development resources focused on the next release.

My primary server is stuck at F10, waiting for the bind/dnssec smoke
to clear. Until I can get my second server functional at F12, it will
not be touched. Reality says that I need it functional so I can log in
to my day job and get stuff done.

Al

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Old 03-09-2010, 01:23 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Al Dunsmuir wrote:

>
> Seth,
>
> The problem is that when things do get broken in a stable release, the
> updates that fix the problem often only get released in the next
> release.
>
> When I installed F11, two of my systems ran fine for the install and
> those updates available at time of installation. One of those was an
> Intel system which only was able to do graphical install with the
> final release (not any of the snapshots before release). The other was
> an older ATI board.
>
> Both systems were borked by X11 updates that came one week after the
> GA. I was able to get both system running vesa-mode with help from the
> mailing list. I dutifully opened bug reports... which I updated
> regularly. It took on the order of three months until things got back
> into good enough shape to run native X again. Part of that was because
> I'd upgraded my monitor and replaced the built-in Intel with an ATI
> card (needed to support a widescreen LCD at 1920x1200).
>
> I am worried that the direction a number of folks is taking would
> place excessive focus on minimizing risk due to changes. Stuff
> happens, so in complex areas such as X my experience of a "stable
> release" being broken a week after release was unpleasant but not all
> that unexpected. What was unexpected was that it would be acceptable
> for this regression to be left unaddressed for months, with all of the
> development resources focused on the next release.
>
> My primary server is stuck at F10, waiting for the bind/dnssec smoke
> to clear. Until I can get my second server functional at F12, it will
> not be touched. Reality says that I need it functional so I can log in
> to my day job and get stuff done.

Your primary server runs fedora? May I ask why?

-sv

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Old 03-09-2010, 01:33 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 12:23 +0100, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> Ok, but then we're stuck in infinite cycle. Some people want to change update
> policies/target of Fedora because of users, we don't know who are our user and
> what they want. Now someone wants to know who are our users/what our users
> really want, we don't want to know it, because we don't want to do Fedora for
> what users want or need, because we're developing Fedora for us. Funny ;-)

Making a change to the stability of our updates isn't just about the
users we have, it's also about the users we want to design for, and want
to have, which we might not have currently because our updates are too
unstable.

--
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Old 03-09-2010, 01:33 PM
Al Dunsmuir
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

Hello Seth,

Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 9:23:00 AM, you wrote:

> Your primary server runs fedora? May I ask why?
> -sv

I have limited time to do system installs and maintenance. Sticking
with one distribution helps keep that sane. I have a dual boot XP +
Ubuntu machine that I do some play with, but I find it strange, having
used Fedora since FC3.

If Fedora isn't up to the task of handling the basic services that my
server provides (dns, dhcp, samba, ftp and http) for my home office
with multiple PCs, what good is it?
Al

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Old 03-09-2010, 01:37 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Al Dunsmuir wrote:

> Hello Seth,
>
> Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 9:23:00 AM, you wrote:
>
>> Your primary server runs fedora? May I ask why?
>> -sv
>
> I have limited time to do system installs and maintenance. Sticking
> with one distribution helps keep that sane. I have a dual boot XP +
> Ubuntu machine that I do some play with, but I find it strange, having
> used Fedora since FC3.
>
> If Fedora isn't up to the task of handling the basic services that my
> server provides (dns, dhcp, samba, ftp and http) for my home office
> with multiple PCs, what good is it?

Handle the tasks? Sure fedora can - but it doesn't have the updates
lifespan for a server.


-sv

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Old 03-09-2010, 01:38 PM
Jaroslav Reznik
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tuesday 09 March 2010 15:33:35 Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 12:23 +0100, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> > Ok, but then we're stuck in infinite cycle. Some people want to change
> > update policies/target of Fedora because of users, we don't know who are
> > our user and what they want. Now someone wants to know who are our
> > users/what our users really want, we don't want to know it, because we
> > don't want to do Fedora for what users want or need, because we're
> > developing Fedora for us. Funny ;-)
>
> Making a change to the stability of our updates isn't just about the
> users we have, it's also about the users we want to design for, and want
> to have, which we might not have currently because our updates are too
> unstable.

I've already replied Seth - about users we want. In this case it looks like
all catch distro we want = compromise is needed. Current state is not
suitable, I agree. But it's not only about updates but also about release
schedules - 6 months is not win for these users and about all stuff we want to
package, how to support it... It means completely changes in Fedora from top
to bottom ;-)

Jaroslav
--
Jaroslav Ňėezn√*k <jreznik@redhat.com>
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 731 455 332
Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/
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Old 03-09-2010, 01:57 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 08:51 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote:

> We get the users we aim for.

Not really true. We don't aim at all, and we only get the users that can
bear to stay with us...

> Here's the camps I see:
>
> 1. One group wants us to aim for mom/pop/grandma/desktop users - the
> apple market or what ubuntu aims for.
>
> 2. one group wants us to aim exclusively for the bleeding edge open
> source developer market.
>
> 3. one group wants us to aim for the admin/experienced user who wants
> newer things but doesn't have time nor interest to fight with lots of broken things.

That is one way to phrase it. But really, the first is not just a
'marked', it is everybody. Who wouldn't want a system that works without
much of a hassle and lets me do what I want to do without requiring
constant attention to breakage and changes ?

And if you don't have anything to offer to the first group, the second
group is going to loose interest too. Why would somebody want to develop
software on a system that has no users ? If the users are all using
other OSes, then it only makes sense to develop the software on those
OSes. I cannot imagine anybody wanting to develop apps on or for Fedora
in its current state.

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Old 03-09-2010, 01:57 PM
Al Dunsmuir
 
Default PROPOSAL: Fedora user survey

Hello Seth,

Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 9:37:26 AM, you wrote:



> On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Al Dunsmuir wrote:

>> Hello Seth,
>>
>> Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 9:23:00 AM, you wrote:
>>
>>> Your primary server runs fedora? May I ask why?
>>> -sv
>>
>> I have limited time to do system installs and maintenance. Sticking
>> with one distribution helps keep that sane. I have a dual boot XP +
>> Ubuntu machine that I do some play with, but I find it strange, having
>> used Fedora since FC3.
>>
>> If Fedora isn't up to the task of handling the basic services that my
>> server provides (dns, dhcp, samba, ftp and http) for my home office
>> with multiple PCs, what good is it?

> Handle the tasks? Sure fedora can - but it doesn't have the updates
> lifespan for a server.
> -sv

Until F8, I had no problems with the 6 month release cycle. I'd
update my desktop, then update my server once I was confident that
everything was stable. I don't mind if it works.

I prefer to work on the server in X. The massive X changes over the
last few releases introduced problems were for a good cause (but at
the time were painful). I expect that to be fairly settled down, as I
don't run any applications that require 3d.

Bind seems to messy by nature. Starting in F10, configuration changes
were required each release. These were not necessarily all documented
(selinux, chroot not working/recommended). Opening problem reports in
Bugzilla helped to get those addressed.

I'd like to get back to where Fedora "just works", so I could have
some time to do development work in areas that would help move Fedora
ahead.

Al

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