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Old 01-10-2008, 09:02 AM
Krzysztof Halasa
 
Default Fedora too cutting edge?

Hans de Goede <j.w.r.degoede@hhs.nl> writes:

> As for this being fixed, not for my case, as I have a via vt 6306
> controller, which is like, only the most common PC firewire controller
> on the planet.

It should do OHCI 1.1, you may want to take the risk and try the
program. Make sure you have a backup (the GUID and possibly whole
EEPROM data).

VIA claims both VT6306 and VT6307 are OHCI-1.1 (capable), I just
have no VT6306 to test (actually it seems VT6307 is a cheeper
version, aimed at motherboard manufacturers).
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Old 01-10-2008, 01:03 PM
Jima
 
Default Fedora too cutting edge?

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Linus Walleij wrote:

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, John W. Linville wrote:

FWIW, I get criticized for pushing too much brand-new wireless
bits into the Fedora kernels.


I, for one, THANK YOU for doing it John, it saved my day and I'm not going to
forget that. So keep doing what you're doing.


+10. I thought about replying last night, but I didn't think it'd
improve the S:N ratio. :-)
I've always found John's work to be beneficial to the distro, including
when he breaks support for my hardware. (Hey, he usually tries to fix it
pretty quick, too!)


Sometimes you've gotta break some yolks to make scrambled eggs. Does it
suck? Sure. Is it for the best in the long run? I think so.


On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, Chuck Anderson wrote:

On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 01:57:23AM +0000, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> despite Fedora not including proprietary junk like madwifi (what's the
> state of ath5k by the way?)

ath5k Works for me(TM), NM 0.7 EAP-TLS, with a few issues after
suspend/resume.


Oooh, I'll have to try that again. Where'd that Atheros MiniPCI card
go...and the PCI one.


Jima

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Old 01-10-2008, 02:43 PM
Jarod Wilson
 
Default Fedora too cutting edge?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
> Hans de Goede <j.w.r.degoede@hhs.nl> writes:
>
>> As for this being fixed, not for my case, as I have a via vt 6306
>> controller, which is like, only the most common PC firewire controller
>> on the planet.
>
> It should do OHCI 1.1, you may want to take the risk and try the
> program. Make sure you have a backup (the GUID and possibly whole
> EEPROM data).
>
> VIA claims both VT6306 and VT6307 are OHCI-1.1 (capable), I just
> have no VT6306 to test (actually it seems VT6307 is a cheeper
> version, aimed at motherboard manufacturers).

Honestly, I'd rather we just figured out what's wrong with the Via chipsets in
OHCI 1.0 mode, rather than relying on people flashing their controllers to 1.1
mode. I've got a few ideas, hoping to get back to juju hacking shortly...


- --
Jarod Wilson
jwilson@redhat.com

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Old 01-10-2008, 02:48 PM
Hans de Goede
 
Default Fedora too cutting edge?

Jarod Wilson wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Krzysztof Halasa wrote:

Hans de Goede <j.w.r.degoede@hhs.nl> writes:


As for this being fixed, not for my case, as I have a via vt 6306
controller, which is like, only the most common PC firewire controller
on the planet.

It should do OHCI 1.1, you may want to take the risk and try the
program. Make sure you have a backup (the GUID and possibly whole
EEPROM data).

VIA claims both VT6306 and VT6307 are OHCI-1.1 (capable), I just
have no VT6306 to test (actually it seems VT6307 is a cheeper
version, aimed at motherboard manufacturers).


Honestly, I'd rather we just figured out what's wrong with the Via chipsets in
OHCI 1.0 mode, rather than relying on people flashing their controllers to 1.1
mode. I've got a few ideas, hoping to get back to juju hacking shortly...



I didn't flash my controller, I wanted too, but it turned out it already was
put in 1.1 by the manufacturer of the card I'm using.


I'm willing to flash to 1.0 mode to help test IIDC in 1.0 mode though, but
first let get IIDC working with the card in 1.1 mode


Regards,

Hans

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Old 01-10-2008, 03:04 PM
Jarod Wilson
 
Default Fedora too cutting edge?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Fernando Pablo Lopez-Lezcano wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, Hans de Goede wrote:
>> Notice how a preliminary fix is expected for 2.6.25, which probably
>> means that this will still be broken in Fedora 9, notice that the
>> breakage was introduced in Fedora 7, so thats 18 months worth of
>> broken firewire camera support (iow most digital video cameras).

No, we can add said preliminary fix to the F9 (and earlier) kernels. In fact,
I'm inclined to add the OHCI 1.1 iidc fixes from David Moore to rawhide later
today, as well as port them to the 1.0 code (which I'd also include).

> _and_ firewire audio interfaces as well.
>
> Which forced me and others to return to the original stack in my
> realtime tuned kernels for Planet CCRMA. And unpatch the corresponding
> libraries. And keep track of the whole mess. A royal pain you know
> where. Planet CCRMA is about audio. Non working interfaces that were
> working before is not good.
>
> If you ask me, 18 months is way too long. It is/was a failed experiment.

Nah, its not failed, its just not complete. It works quite well where it does
work -- sbp2 devices and dv capture. In the sbp2 case, it works far better
than the old stack ever did. We're just a bit lacking in man power to fix up
the broken things. Rather than spend time working on fixing the new stack,
people run back to the old stack.

Of course, I understand some people need things to be working NOW, but there's
a chicken and egg problem there. I don't do any firewire audio stuff, so
offhand, I don't have a clue how to fix the particular problems you're seeing
(I'm not even sure *what* the problems are). The things I do (sbp2 storage and
dv capture) pretty much Just Work -- and dv capture only does so on (most)
OHCI 1.0 controllers, because I sat down and wrote the OCHI 1.0 isochronous
receive support code (with lots of help from krh, mind you, since I knew
nothing about the code going in).

> My opinion is that the new stack was not and still is not ready for
> inclusion in a mainstream distro. It just breaks too many things that
> people actually need to do work on the computer running that kernel.

Another chicken and egg problem. How do we know it doesn't work if we don't
ship it?

>> What IMHO we should have done is build both the new and the oldstack,
>> which is possible on the kernel side, and modify our patches to
>> userspace to support the juju stack, so that the userspace libs can
>> work with either one. On top of this we should then have written a
>> small gui utility for easy switching.
>
> Yup. Or wait till the stack actually works. But then a big chorus will
> probably say if we don't ship it it will not get fixed or whatever.

Yeah, I'm part of the chorus.

> But
> it has been shipped for a long time and not fixed so I _don't_ buy that
> argument.

Admittedly, we've been rather slow to fix things, so I do understand your not
agreeing with the chorus.

But things *are* improving, and we *do* intend on continuing to fix things.
We're just a bit short on man-power to actually sit down, reproduce problems,
debug and fix them. I only recently got familiar with the kernel code myself,
and my day job deals mainly with RHEL kernel stuff, but I'm quite happy to try
to help out with any Fedora firewire bugs still outstanding (several are
already on my plate). If you have any open bugs, or want to file any new ones,
please do. Assign them to me (jwilson@redhat.com) and cc Kristian
(krh@redhat.com) and Jay (fenlason@redhat.com).

> Agreed... At least firewire has been broken for too long (IMHO)

Agreed.


- --
Jarod Wilson
jwilson@redhat.com

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Old 01-10-2008, 03:47 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora too cutting edge?

Jarod Wilson wrote:


Another chicken and egg problem. How do we know it doesn't work if we don't
ship it?


Ship it with a way to revert to previous behavior. If people post
bugzilla items and revert, you know it didn't work and you will still
have someone to test your next experiment.



Agreed... At least firewire has been broken for too long (IMHO)


I gave up on it somewhere around FC3 and switched to the CentOSplus
kernel where I needed something that mostly worked. So I'm not a good
tester any more.



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Old 01-10-2008, 05:22 PM
Jarod Wilson
 
Default Fedora too cutting edge?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hans de Goede wrote:
> Jarod Wilson wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
>>> Hans de Goede <j.w.r.degoede@hhs.nl> writes:
>>>
>>>> As for this being fixed, not for my case, as I have a via vt 6306
>>>> controller, which is like, only the most common PC firewire controller
>>>> on the planet.
>>> It should do OHCI 1.1, you may want to take the risk and try the
>>> program. Make sure you have a backup (the GUID and possibly whole
>>> EEPROM data).
>>>
>>> VIA claims both VT6306 and VT6307 are OHCI-1.1 (capable), I just
>>> have no VT6306 to test (actually it seems VT6307 is a cheeper
>>> version, aimed at motherboard manufacturers).
>>
>> Honestly, I'd rather we just figured out what's wrong with the Via
>> chipsets in
>> OHCI 1.0 mode, rather than relying on people flashing their
>> controllers to 1.1
>> mode. I've got a few ideas, hoping to get back to juju hacking shortly...
>>
>
> I didn't flash my controller, I wanted too, but it turned out it already
> was put in 1.1 by the manufacturer of the card I'm using.
>
> I'm willing to flash to 1.0 mode to help test IIDC in 1.0 mode though,
> but first let get IIDC working with the card in 1.1 mode

I hope to have a rawhide kernel built soonish with some additional bits from
the linux1394 git tree that may solve your iidc problems (and if I'm lucky, a
few other items on my todo list).


- --
Jarod Wilson
jwilson@redhat.com

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Old 01-10-2008, 05:25 PM
Hans de Goede
 
Default Fedora too cutting edge?

Jarod Wilson wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hans de Goede wrote:

Jarod Wilson wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Krzysztof Halasa wrote:

Hans de Goede <j.w.r.degoede@hhs.nl> writes:


As for this being fixed, not for my case, as I have a via vt 6306
controller, which is like, only the most common PC firewire controller
on the planet.

It should do OHCI 1.1, you may want to take the risk and try the
program. Make sure you have a backup (the GUID and possibly whole
EEPROM data).

VIA claims both VT6306 and VT6307 are OHCI-1.1 (capable), I just
have no VT6306 to test (actually it seems VT6307 is a cheeper
version, aimed at motherboard manufacturers).

Honestly, I'd rather we just figured out what's wrong with the Via
chipsets in
OHCI 1.0 mode, rather than relying on people flashing their
controllers to 1.1
mode. I've got a few ideas, hoping to get back to juju hacking shortly...


I didn't flash my controller, I wanted too, but it turned out it already
was put in 1.1 by the manufacturer of the card I'm using.

I'm willing to flash to 1.0 mode to help test IIDC in 1.0 mode though,
but first let get IIDC working with the card in 1.1 mode


I hope to have a rawhide kernel built soonish with some additional bits from
the linux1394 git tree that may solve your iidc problems (and if I'm lucky, a
few other items on my todo list).



Sounds good, let me know when koji has something to test for me.

Regards,

Hans

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Old 01-10-2008, 07:47 PM
Jima
 
Default Fedora too cutting edge?

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Les Mikesell wrote:

Jarod Wilson wrote:

Another chicken and egg problem. How do we know it doesn't work if we don't
ship it?


Ship it with a way to revert to previous behavior. If people post bugzilla
items and revert, you know it didn't work and you will still have someone to
test your next experiment.


Are you realistically expecting people to not skip the "post bugzilla
items" step? I like to think the best of people (okay, no I don't), but I
try to keep my expectations on this planet. ;-)
If we shipped that easy of a reversion (wow, that's a word!) technique, I
strongly suspect we'd never hear Juju was broken.


Jima

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Old 01-10-2008, 08:11 PM
Jarod Wilson
 
Default Fedora too cutting edge?

Les Mikesell wrote:
> Jarod Wilson wrote:
>>
>> Another chicken and egg problem. How do we know it doesn't work if we
>> don't
>> ship it?
>
> Ship it with a way to revert to previous behavior. If people post
> bugzilla items and revert, you know it didn't work and you will still
> have someone to test your next experiment.

Like jima said... I'm guessing most people simply won't bother with the bug
report. Or ever test the new stack again for the life of the release. (Note
that the latest F8 kernel has dv capture support for OHCI 1.0 controllers,
while the initial release kernel does not).

>>> Agreed... At least firewire has been broken for too long (IMHO)
>
> I gave up on it somewhere around FC3 and switched to the CentOSplus
> kernel where I needed something that mostly worked. So I'm not a good
> tester any more.

Uhm... So you gave up on juju three releases before it existed? It didn't show
up until F7...

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