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Old 03-07-2010, 06:04 PM
Mike McGrath
 
Default Update question: some user data

On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, Adam Williamson wrote:

> On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 11:06 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
>
> > It very well might. But this poll is poorly worded and only
>
> That's the first time you've suggested it's poorly worded; in what way,
> might I ask?
>

Adventurous and Conservative are both subjective. I bet if you asked
"Would you prefer Fedora have fewer updates or more updates" you'd have a
completely different result on your hands. It's also more objective.
Even asking changing adventurous to "newer and less stable" to "slower and
more stable" would probably change the results a bit. There's quite a
science to this stuff, it's not to be taken lightly.

If we're going to put a serious poll together to ask our users[1] It'd
need to ask several questions in order for us to put data together to try
to make opinions about what the data means. It's quite possible people
generally want the latest software, but REALLY want a stable desktop and
REALLY want fewer updates every day. They may also want just the opposite
or some combination in the middle.

-Mike

[1] I'm actually in favor of polling but I'd prefer it to be scientific.
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Old 03-07-2010, 06:10 PM
Mail Lists
 
Default Update question: some user data

On 03/07/2010 12:43 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

> No but I have been on that list for five years and follow a lot more

I've been with it since early redhat days ...

First, may I suggest we not confuse version N-1 and assumtion of
stability. That is way too simplistic. Sometimes the best path to
stability is to update.

Stability comes from many things - not changing the software may help
sometimes and other times it just keeps you stuck with bugs and broken
behaviour.

Attempting to make naive rules like never update as some are
suggesting is .. well naive.

Stability comes from using sound judgment - maintainers and upstream
and feedback from users .. these together provide information from which
good decisions can be made.

We need to rely on upstream as well as our maintainers and not clamp
them in a box - encourage them to do whats right. By all means provide
guidance about using good judgment.

It seems clear to me - in spite of those in denial, that the majority
of fedora users want to track upstream as much as possible and keep
pretty much up to date. Everyone I know chose fedora for that reason
together with its basic solidness. We want some testing and QR to be
comfortable things will continue to work reasonably - we want to pick up
the bug fixes and the new hardware (wifi drivers for example) support.
And yeh - we'll take the new kernel speedups too!

Yes we've had bad decisions (kde 4.0 in my view) and good decisions
(2.6.32 kernel - def sound decision).

Another question is how the fedora management teams (fesco et al) will
deal with bad decisions once they've been made - generally the response
to problems in the past has been good (fixing dnssec for example).

Fedora is pretty dang good - can it be better ? Sure ... but its not
broken.









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Old 03-07-2010, 06:18 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Update question: some user data

On 03/08/2010 12:40 AM, Mail Lists wrote:
>
> First, may I suggest we not confuse version N-1 and assumtion of
> stability. That is way too simplistic. Sometimes the best path to
> stability is to update.
>

You are arguing against something that was never suggested and I am not
even saying I agree with the users but I am saying that I observed that
some users have that expectation and yes we should factor that into our
discussions when we are forming decisions

Rahul
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Old 03-07-2010, 06:29 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Update question: some user data

On 03/08/2010 12:22 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 11:06 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
>
>
>> It very well might. But this poll is poorly worded and only
>>
> That's the first time you've suggested it's poorly worded; in what way,
> might I ask?
>

I thought you were doing this more as a casual thing

If you are going to use the poll to recommend decisions you might want
to put together a survey with a reasonable number of questions
(conservative vs adventurous in one part but as Mike has hinted more
updates or less updates in another part and I am sure there a few other
related questions to ask as well) and send it over to fedora-announce
list with the opportunity for more people to vote who are not registered
or use the fedora forum and that requires coordination with the Fedora
Board and Marketing teams

Rahul
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Old 03-07-2010, 07:29 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Update question: some user data

On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 00:59 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 03/08/2010 12:22 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 11:06 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
> >
> >
> >> It very well might. But this poll is poorly worded and only
> >>
> > That's the first time you've suggested it's poorly worded; in what way,
> > might I ask?

> I thought you were doing this more as a casual thing

I was. That doesn't mean I think it's badly worded.
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Old 03-07-2010, 07:39 PM
Mike McGrath
 
Default Update question: some user data

On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, Adam Williamson wrote:

> On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 00:59 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > On 03/08/2010 12:22 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 11:06 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> It very well might. But this poll is poorly worded and only
> > >>
> > > That's the first time you've suggested it's poorly worded; in what way,
> > > might I ask?
>
> > I thought you were doing this more as a casual thing
>
> I was. That doesn't mean I think it's badly worded.
>

Very well, I retract badly worded and insert "not useful". But hey, it's
generated more email right?

-Mike
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Old 03-07-2010, 07:56 PM
Toshio Kuratomi
 
Default Update question: some user data

On Sun, Mar 07, 2010 at 01:04:03PM -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, Adam Williamson wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 11:06 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
> >
> > > It very well might. But this poll is poorly worded and only
> >
> > That's the first time you've suggested it's poorly worded; in what way,
> > might I ask?
> >
>
> Adventurous and Conservative are both subjective. I bet if you asked
> "Would you prefer Fedora have fewer updates or more updates" you'd have a
> completely different result on your hands. It's also more objective.
> Even asking changing adventurous to "newer and less stable" to "slower and
> more stable" would probably change the results a bit. There's quite a
> science to this stuff, it's not to be taken lightly.
>
Note that "newer and less stable" vs "older and more stable" isn't true of
the proposals either unless someone wants to put the idea of mandatory
backports on the table. (And even then... backports come with their own
potential regressions as the person doing the backport might not notice all
the pieces that were changed across several patches).

"more updates" vs "fewer updates" is closer to correct although even then,
we could end up with more updates if a maintainer chooses to backport fixes
but does so a few at a time (due to having small increments of time over
a long period rather than one large increment of time at long intervals).

The poll is what the poll is.... I think Adam's original statement that it
shouldn't be the sole basis of an opinion but that it should be used to
remember that what people want might not look anything like what we think
they want is the best way to view the data.

-Toshio
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Old 03-07-2010, 08:36 PM
Mail Lists
 
Default Update question: some user data

On 03/07/2010 03:39 PM, Mike McGrath wrote:

> Very well, I retract badly worded and insert "not useful". But hey, it's
> generated more email right?
>
> -Mike

"Newer and less stable" - using your words - is way more leading (and
totally false) than what Adam did ...

polls can certainly be misleading - his poll is what it is and the
message from it is pretty clear - you just dont like the outcome.
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Old 03-07-2010, 08:41 PM
Mike McGrath
 
Default Update question: some user data

On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, Mail Lists wrote:

> On 03/07/2010 03:39 PM, Mike McGrath wrote:
>
> > Very well, I retract badly worded and insert "not useful". But hey, it's
> > generated more email right?
> >
> > -Mike
>
> "Newer and less stable" - using your words - is way more leading (and
> totally false) than what Adam did ...
>
> polls can certainly be misleading - his poll is what it is and the
> message from it is pretty clear - you just dont like the outcome.
>

Fine, then choose my other, non-leading words. At the very least include
them in your quote... or were you trying to mislead people?

This is my last email on this topic. Please hold me to that.

-Mike
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Old 03-07-2010, 08:48 PM
Mail Lists
 
Default Update question: some user data

On 03/07/2010 04:41 PM, Mike McGrath wrote:

> This is my last email on this topic. Please hold me to that.
>
> -Mike

Sorry - missed that - what did you say ? :-)
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