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Old 03-06-2010, 09:07 PM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default Another great update

Am Samstag, den 06.03.2010, 21:10 +0100 schrieb Dominik 'Rathann'
Mierzejewski:
> On Saturday, 06 March 2010 at 18:49, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> > Am Samstag, den 06.03.2010, 18:17 +0100 schrieb Michał Piotrowski:
> [...]
> > > Because I don't understand the
> > > criteria for Fedora package update.
> > >
> > > Why I can install KDE 4.4 in F11 and I can't install latest gnome?
> >
> > Because the KDE SIG uses different criteria than most of the other
> > packagers.
>
> How do you know what criteria most packagers use? I assume you have done
> some analysis, since you stated that so authoritatively. Can we see your
> analysis?

I didn't state anything authoritatively and what I described is what
everybody who looks at https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates will see.

He will see huge KDE updates like
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/search/kdebase-runtime
By taking a closer look he will then see that KDE in F11 was released
with KDE 4.2.2, then updated to 4.2.3, then 4.2.4, 4.3.0, 4.3.1, 4.3.2,
4.3.3, 4.3.4, 4.3.5 and finally to 4.4.0. This means that
kdebase-workspace is one of the most updated packages in Fedora:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/metrics/?release=F11

Most of our packagers follow the guidelines from the wiki:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_guidelines
This means, they apply at least three criteria:
* An update should not break something
* An update should be backwards compatible, e.g. it should not
change the syntax or location of a config file so that old
settings can no longer be applied.
* An update should not change the behavior of an basic
application, e.g. think of when Thunderbird started indexing
automatically after an update.

Summing it all up I think I don't think it is pretty obvious that the
KDE SIG uses different criteria then most other maintainers. This is
just a statement and no criticism.

> Regards,
> R.

Regards,
Christoph

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Old 03-06-2010, 09:16 PM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default Another great update

Am Samstag, den 06.03.2010, 19:38 +0100 schrieb Michał Piotrowski:
> 2010/3/6 Naheem Zaffar <naheemzaffar@gmail.com>:
> >
[snipped]
> > PS other places that have more stable updates also have their problems -
> > there are many users who dislike Ubuntu because bugs are not fixed and they
> > have to live with them far too long.

Nobody is talking about bugfix updates here. Bugfixes are always
allowed.
> I generally agree with your POV for actual stable F12 - latest and
> greatest updates for peoples who likes bleeding edge. But previous
> stable (F11) IMHO should be considered as "in maintenance mode" -
> security and bug fixes only.

+1, Michał! People who want the latest and greatest have already updated
to F12 months ago anyway, so there is not much use in pushing new
versions to F11.

Regards,
Christoph

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Old 03-06-2010, 09:25 PM
Orcan Ogetbil
 
Default Another great update

On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>
> +1, Michał! People who want the latest and greatest have already updated
> to F12 months ago anyway, so there is not much use in pushing new
> versions to F11.
>

Why? I don't want to update/reinstall all my machines every 6 months.
And I expect the same amount of latestness an greatestness from F-11 and F-12.
And I am not alone. (See the discussions in the devel list for the last 2 weeks.

When version X of a software is supported in F-12, the same version X
can be supported most of the time in F-11. And if it can be supported,
it should be supported.

However, this mc update should have gone to testing and stayed there
for a couple weeks before pushed to stable. I agree at that point.


Orcan
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Old 03-06-2010, 09:33 PM
Till Maas
 
Default Another great update

On Sat, Mar 06, 2010 at 11:16:45PM +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> Am Samstag, den 06.03.2010, 19:38 +0100 schrieb Michał Piotrowski:
> > 2010/3/6 Naheem Zaffar <naheemzaffar@gmail.com>:
> > >
> [snipped]
> > > PS other places that have more stable updates also have their problems -
> > > there are many users who dislike Ubuntu because bugs are not fixed and they
> > > have to live with them far too long.
>
> Nobody is talking about bugfix updates here. Bugfixes are always
> allowed.

There are also proponents who want less bug fixes to lower the chances
of regressions. Btw. upstream releases most often contain bug fixes, even
if they also contain new features.

Regards
Till
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Old 03-06-2010, 09:40 PM
Michał Piotrowski
 
Default Another great update

2010/3/6 Orcan Ogetbil <oget.fedora@gmail.com>:
> On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>>
>> +1, Michał! People who want the latest and greatest have already updated
>> to F12 months ago anyway, so there is not much use in pushing new
>> versions to F11.
>>
>
> Why? I don't want to update

But you are updating to latest KDE in f11. So what is the deal with
full system update?

> /reinstall all my machines every 6 months.
> And I expect the same amount of latestness an greatestness from F-11 and F-12.
> And I am not alone. (See the discussions in the devel list for the last 2 weeks.
>
> When version X of a software is supported in F-12, the same version X
> can be supported most of the time in F-11. And if it can be supported,
> it should be supported.

Ok, but what is the point of previous stable version then? If you have
the same software in F11 and F12, I really don't see the reason to
support f11. Just update all machines to f12...

OTOH - don't release F13 - just push updates to F12 - will be the same thing

I hope you get my POV.

>
> However, this mc update should have gone to testing and stayed there
> for a couple weeks before pushed to stable. I agree at that point.
>
>
> Orcan
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Regards,
Michal
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Old 03-06-2010, 09:44 PM
Michał Piotrowski
 
Default Another great update

2010/3/6 Christoph Wickert <christoph.wickert@googlemail.com>:
> Am Samstag, den 06.03.2010, 19:30 +0100 schrieb Michał Piotrowski:
>
>> I have seen some discussions, but I don't follow them. I'm waiting for
>> results
>
> Get involved, try to influence the discussion.
>

I'm just a guest here

I'm not a Fedora developer so my vote doesn't really matter.

Regards,
Michal
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Old 03-06-2010, 09:48 PM
Orcan Ogetbil
 
Default Another great update

2010/3/6 Michał Piotrowski :
> 2010/3/6 Orcan Ogetbil :
>> On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>>>
>>> +1, Michał! People who want the latest and greatest have already updated
>>> to F12 months ago anyway, so there is not much use in pushing new
>>> versions to F11.
>>>
>>
>> Why? I don't want to update
>
> But you are updating to latest KDE in f11. So what is the deal with
> full system update?
>

Time. A simple "yum update" or make a selective update takes a few
minutes. A whole system update takes more.

>> /reinstall all my machines every 6 months.
>> And I expect the same amount of latestness an greatestness from F-11 and F-12.
>> And I am not alone. (See the discussions in the devel list for the last 2 weeks.
>>
>> When version X of a software is supported in F-12, the same version X
>> can be supported most of the time in F-11. And if it can be supported,
>> it should be supported.
>
> Ok, but what is the point of previous stable version then? If you have
> the same software in F11 and F12, I really don't see the reason to
> support f11. Just update all machines to f12...
>
> OTOH - don't release F13 - just push updates to F12 - will be the same thing
>

Nope it won't. As I already said in the long discussion, the core
components need updates too. It is impractical to update them in
stable releases.
So F-11, F-12 should be constantly updated, except the limitations
caused by core components.

Moreover, stuff like default filesystem, bootloader, etc change in
time. These kind of updates cannot be done in an easy way in stable
releases on the fly. The numbers 11, 12 should only indicate the core
components revision number .

Orcan
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Old 03-06-2010, 09:48 PM
Kalev Lember
 
Default Another great update

On 03/07/2010 12:25 AM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>>
>> +1, Michał! People who want the latest and greatest have already updated
>> to F12 months ago anyway, so there is not much use in pushing new
>> versions to F11.
>>
>
> Why? I don't want to update/reinstall all my machines every 6 months.
> And I expect the same amount of latestness an greatestness from F-11 and F-12.
> And I am not alone. (See the discussions in the devel list for the last 2 weeks.
>
> When version X of a software is supported in F-12, the same version X
> can be supported most of the time in F-11. And if it can be supported,
> it should be supported.

I'd personally want to be able to _choose_ if and when I want to get all
the new stuff. If I have time, I upgrade to new Fedora release and
happily deal with all the problems that come up. This is exactly what
new distro releases are for -- people prepare for the upgrade and take
time to do it.

But what happened now is that a major Desktop Environment version was
dumped in a stable Fedora release, and it annoyed some people (me
included). If the new version had only come with F-13 instead, then I'd
have an option to choose _when_ I want to upgrade from F-12 to F-13 to
deal with the problems that might arise with the new version. But if the
new version is dumped upon me in the middle of a week, I'm left without
a choice. I have to immediately deal with whatever problems arise from
the upgrade. Now think how someone who administers more than one
computer would react to that -- I'm sure they also want to choose when
to get major upgrades so that they could upgrade when they feel they
have enough time for that.

So yes, I'd prefer to upgrade (not reinstall! as you said) once every 6
months, instead of having to deal with changing expectations every
single day.

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Old 03-06-2010, 09:49 PM
Till Maas
 
Default Another great update

On Sat, Mar 06, 2010 at 11:40:20PM +0100, Michał Piotrowski wrote:
> 2010/3/6 Orcan Ogetbil <oget.fedora@gmail.com>:
> > On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> >>
> >> +1, Michał! People who want the latest and greatest have already updated
> >> to F12 months ago anyway, so there is not much use in pushing new
> >> versions to F11.
> >>
> >
> > Why? I don't want to update
>
> But you are updating to latest KDE in f11. So what is the deal with
> full system update?

> > When version X of a software is supported in F-12, the same version X
> > can be supported most of the time in F-11. And if it can be supported,
> > it should be supported.
>
> Ok, but what is the point of previous stable version then? If you have
> the same software in F11 and F12, I really don't see the reason to
> support f11. Just update all machines to f12...

Not everything can be supported in both releases, e.g. when KDE 4 was
released, the older Fedora release with KDE 3 did not update to KDE 4.
Also e.g. when pam_mount (a package I maintain) was partly rewritten and
changed the config file from custom to XML, this disqualified this
update to happen in a released version of Fedora.

Regards
Till
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Old 03-06-2010, 09:52 PM
Orcan Ogetbil
 
Default Another great update

On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:48 PM, Kalev Lember wrote:
> On 03/07/2010 12:25 AM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>>>
>>> +1, Michał! People who want the latest and greatest have already updated
>>> to F12 months ago anyway, so there is not much use in pushing new
>>> versions to F11.
>>>
>>
>> Why? I don't want to update/reinstall all my machines every 6 months.
>> And I expect the same amount of latestness an greatestness from F-11 and F-12.
>> And I am not alone. (See the discussions in the devel list for the last 2 weeks.
>>
>> When version X of a software is supported in F-12, the same version X
>> can be supported most of the time in F-11. And if it can be supported,
>> it should be supported.
>
> I'd personally want to be able to _choose_ if and when I want to get all
> the new stuff. If I have time, I upgrade to new Fedora release and
> happily deal with all the problems that come up. This is exactly what
> new distro releases are for -- people prepare for the upgrade and take
> time to do it.
>
> But what happened now is that a major Desktop Environment version was
> dumped in a stable Fedora release, and it annoyed some people (me
> included). If the new version had only come with F-13 instead, then I'd
> have an option to choose _when_ I want to upgrade from F-12 to F-13 to
> deal with the problems that might arise with the new version. But if the
> new version is dumped upon me in the middle of a week, I'm left without
> a choice. I have to immediately deal with whatever problems arise from
> the upgrade. Now think how someone who administers more than one
> computer would react to that -- I'm sure they also want to choose when
> to get major upgrades so that they could upgrade when they feel they
> have enough time for that.
>
> So yes, I'd prefer to upgrade (not reinstall! as you said) once every 6
> months, instead of having to deal with changing expectations every
> single day.
>

Thus you have the option of not doing an update every day.

Moreover you also have the option of updating security fixes only.

Yet moreover you also have the option of updating bugfixes in
addition, leaving the enhancement updates out.

Orcan
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