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-   -   Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right (http://www.linux-archive.org/fedora-development/335728-harmless-kde-feature-upgrades-yeah-right.html)

Juha Tuomala 03-04-2010 10:43 AM

Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right
 
Ironically it happened again, just now when these FESCO threads
are still warm.

My desktop gui processes leak enough mem that I need to restart
couple times a week or system will run out of memory. Today
I started with updating the F11 with yum. During the update,
I noticed that it's pulling in the kde-4.4.0, scary. Then reboot.

Now when I logged in, noticed that desktop has really changed
quite a bit, some visual stuff even fixed.

Then I tried to start kmail to start working. It starts, asks
passwords, whines something about Akonadi which i don't use and
then crashes/exists.

kmail(4465)/kio (KIOConnection)
KIO::ConnectionServer::listenForRemote: Listening on "local:/tmp/ksocket-tuju/kmailRj4465.slave-socket"
kmail(4465)/libakonadi Akonadi::Control::Private::exec: Could not start/stop Akonadi!
kmail(4465) main: Unable to start Akonadi server, exit application
kmail(4465)/kdecore (KConfigSkeleton)
KCoreConfigSkeleton::writeConfig:
(gdb)

This is exactly kind off stuff I don't have time now to solve,
since I need to work. If such upgrade would have been put to
next coming release, I could have upgraded when I have time,
some weekend - it would not interrupted my working and ruin my
day.

For all those who say that "latest stuff is the reason why
I use Fedora!!!1", there is rawhide for you.

For a lot of people, this kind of breakage is exactly the reason not
to switch from windows/mac to Fedora.

Yes, I'm writing this with Alpine... handling pdf attachments and
doing invoicing with it is going to be fun.

KDE SIG, you need to re-think that proposal again.


Tuju

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Juha Tuomala 03-04-2010 11:05 AM

Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right
 
On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Juha Tuomala wrote:
> Then I tried to start kmail to start working. It starts, asks
> passwords, whines something about Akonadi which i don't use and
> then crashes/exists.

Not to mention that kaddressbook which contains all my business
contacts, is broken too:

http://tuju.fi/fedora/11/kab-20100304.png

looks like that some icons are also missing, but hard to judge
as it wont start properly to interact with user.


Tuju

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Rahul Sundaram 03-04-2010 11:13 AM

Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right
 
On 03/04/2010 05:13 PM, Juha Tuomala wrote:
> This is exactly kind off stuff I don't have time now to solve,
> since I need to work. If such upgrade would have been put to
> next coming release, I could have upgraded when I have time,
> some weekend - it would not interrupted my working and ruin my
> day.
>

Yes and it does happen now and then that updates like these cause end
users some pain and while some users love to tinker and play with new
features others see it as a hindrance even if it is purely enhancement
with no regressions because even UI changes cause disruption in workflow
setting aside all the possibility of regressions and I dont believe that
Fedora has the right balance between innovation and stability (not
merely robustness but any change for that matter) at the moment (CentOS
is far removed and rawhide is far too bleeding edge)

Whether it would be a separate backports repo or merely some more
conservativeness in our update stream needs to be discussed and the
current discussion has brought up very polarised opinions and at this
point it would be useful to discuss detailed proposals than continuously
repeating the same points in a circle

For your specific case please file bug reports

Rahul
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Jaroslav Reznik 03-04-2010 11:27 AM

Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right
 
On Thursday 04 March 2010 13:05:36 Juha Tuomala wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Juha Tuomala wrote:
> > Then I tried to start kmail to start working. It starts, asks
> > passwords, whines something about Akonadi which i don't use and
> > then crashes/exists.
>
> Not to mention that kaddressbook which contains all my business
> contacts, is broken too:
>
> http://tuju.fi/fedora/11/kab-20100304.png
>
> looks like that some icons are also missing, but hard to judge
> as it wont start properly to interact with user.

That's the problem of not running Akonadi - it's central PIM part of KDE.
Could you try to run it manually and paste log/output somewhere?

akonadictl start

Thanks

>
> Tuju
>
> --
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Jaroslav Reznik 03-04-2010 11:38 AM

Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right
 
On Thursday 04 March 2010 13:13:18 Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 03/04/2010 05:13 PM, Juha Tuomala wrote:
> > This is exactly kind off stuff I don't have time now to solve,
> > since I need to work. If such upgrade would have been put to
> > next coming release, I could have upgraded when I have time,
> > some weekend - it would not interrupted my working and ruin my
> > day.
>
> Yes and it does happen now and then that updates like these cause end
> users some pain and while some users love to tinker and play with new
> features others see it as a hindrance even if it is purely enhancement
> with no regressions because even UI changes cause disruption in workflow
> setting aside all the possibility of regressions and I dont believe that
> Fedora has the right balance between innovation and stability (not
> merely robustness but any change for that matter) at the moment (CentOS
> is far removed and rawhide is far too bleeding edge)
>
> Whether it would be a separate backports repo or merely some more
> conservativeness in our update stream needs to be discussed and the
> current discussion has brought up very polarised opinions and at this
> point it would be useful to discuss detailed proposals than continuously
> repeating the same points in a circle
>
> For your specific case please file bug reports

We (some KDE SIG people) are currently working on so called stability proposal
[1]. That means one bigger update per release as KDE schedules are not in sync
with Fedora releases. So this means - Fn release of Fedora is getting updates
and users will get fresh software (rawhide is not an option), Fn-1 is
considered as stable, without any "mayor" updates but it's still quite fresh
so users don't have (are not forced) to switch to brand new release, probably
breaking more than just update.

One of reasons we can be now much more conservative is that KDE is now in very
good shape and few releases ago we couldn't let users with for example 4.0,
4.1 releases. Now it's not so important to do big steps as changes are not so
visible

FKDESCo is going to vote probably on next meeting, Tuesday 09 14:00 UTC. So
please, Fedora KDE users - comment these changes! We're working for you!
CC'ing kde@lists.fpo.

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Stability_Proposal

Jaroslav

> Rahul

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Juha Tuomala 03-04-2010 12:08 PM

Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right
 
On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
>> http://tuju.fi/fedora/11/kab-20100304.png
>>
>> looks like that some icons are also missing, but hard to judge
>> as it wont start properly to interact with user.
>
> That's the problem of not running Akonadi - it's central PIM part of KDE.

The funny part is that Akonadi is still very much a work in
progress. I've tried to get it working many times without success.
That's the reason majority still uses those plain resources.

Few days back I asked Rex, 'Do you use Akonadi, or know anyone who
does?' - He repiled that he doesn't. (please correct me if I'm
wrong). I've asked quite many others too, which say that they don't
use it. It's unmature. It would be interesting to know, how many
KDE SIG members actually use it? :)

I've talked to one who works for living with KDE PIM stuff, with
Akonadi people and he says that they are very unsatisfied to its
backends and it's still evolving a lot. They are actually moving
from mysqld to http://virtuoso.openlinksw.com/ (already used in
nepomuk, so KDE drags two RDMBS to desktop atm - funny.)

I get that this is now being pushed down the throat at KDE side and
they probably think that it might get better with wider testing base
and thus they make the code depend hard on it. Fine, and they did it
in their *feature release* since even they don't think that it's
insane to enforce people in the middle of their workweek to become
betatesters of some unfinished project.

If we only could get KDE SIG to start thinking like their upstream
have intended them to think, lot of people wouldn't be in this mess
right now.


Tuju

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Kevin Kofler 03-04-2010 12:47 PM

Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right
 
Juha Tuomala wrote:
> My desktop gui processes leak enough mem that I need to restart
> couple times a week or system will run out of memory. Today
> I started with updating the F11 with yum. During the update,
> I noticed that it's pulling in the kde-4.4.0, scary. Then reboot.
[snip]
> KDE SIG, you need to re-think that proposal again.

You mean the KDE stability proposal? As this is F11, i.e. "previous stable",
KDE 4.4 would actually not have been pushed to F11 under that proposal.

Kevin Kofler

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Kevin Kofler 03-04-2010 12:57 PM

Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right
 
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Whether it would be a separate backports repo or merely some more
> conservativeness in our update stream

FWIW, for stuff like KDE, if we don't allow new feature upgrades even in the
current stable release nor support an official backports repo, an unofficial
one will no doubt spring up, or an existing unofficial repo will pick up
that role (for KDE, kde-redhat stable would probably be revived, currently
it's mostly empty for Fedora as the kind of stuff which would be in there is
usually just pushed as official Fedora updates).

I would argue having this within Fedora infrastructure would be better as it
would prevent proliferation of third-party repos replacing Fedora packages
and the resulting compatibility issues (see e.g. the chaos we're having for
RHEL with third-party repositories replacing official packages with newer
versions and the resulting dependency hell) and as it would also provide a
place for new versions of less commonly-used applications.

That said, IMHO the best solution is still to have this stuff in the
official updates. But it's true that the kind of issues some users are
having with KDE 4.4 are unfortunate. This particular Akonadi issue hasn't
shown up during testing or it would have been considered a blocker.

But I think having yet another thread about update policies will be frowned
upon by the moderators. Instead, let's please think about repairing this
breakage now that it happened, i.e. get bug reports filed etc.

Kevin Kofler

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Juha Tuomala 03-04-2010 01:01 PM

Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right
 
On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> You mean the KDE stability proposal? As this is F11, i.e. "previous stable",
> KDE 4.4 would actually not have been pushed to F11 under that proposal.

How i read it, you would still push *one* feature release in the
middle of stable release lifespan, right?

How that's going to solve anything as upstream *intentionally* pushes
stuff into it to break things? Even they don't expect you to do what
you do.


Tuju

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Kevin Kofler 03-04-2010 01:17 PM

Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right
 
Juha Tuomala wrote:
> The funny part is that Akonadi is still very much a work in
> progress. I've tried to get it working many times without success.
> That's the reason majority still uses those plain resources.

Uh, Akonadi is now always used for contacts as of KDE 4.4.

> Few days back I asked Rex, 'Do you use Akonadi, or know anyone who
> does?' - He repiled that he doesn't. (please correct me if I'm
> wrong). I've asked quite many others too, which say that they don't
> use it. It's unmature. It would be interesting to know, how many
> KDE SIG members actually use it? :)

Uh, all of us who use kdepim apps now use it for contacts. We don't use it
for anything else, but that's part of upstream's Akonadi migration plan. In
4.5, all PIM data will be in Akonadi. Akonadi-based versions of all the PIM
apps have already been merged into KDE's SVN trunk.

> I've talked to one who works for living with KDE PIM stuff, with
> Akonadi people and he says that they are very unsatisfied to its
> backends and it's still evolving a lot. They are actually moving
> from mysqld to http://virtuoso.openlinksw.com/ (already used in
> nepomuk, so KDE drags two RDMBS to desktop atm - funny.)

Virtuoso is actually not a traditional RDBMS. It's a semantic (RDF/SparQL)
database built on top of a relational (SQL) core. As the relational part is
there anyway, they also allow you to access it directly, so Virtuoso can
also be used as an RDBMS, and this is what Akonadi is planning to do, so
they can share the database server with Nepomuk, which uses Virtuoso for its
RDF functionality. But even if the default changes, the MySQL backend is not
going away, it will be needed at least to convert existing data from 4.4.

> I get that this is now being pushed down the throat at KDE side and
> they probably think that it might get better with wider testing base
> and thus they make the code depend hard on it. Fine, and they did it
> in their *feature release* since even they don't think that it's
> insane to enforce people in the middle of their workweek to become
> betatesters of some unfinished project.
>
> If we only could get KDE SIG to start thinking like their upstream
> have intended them to think, lot of people wouldn't be in this mess
> right now.

Upstream has no policy about what kind of releases are to be provided as
updates, this is a distribution decision.

Kevin Kofler

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