FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Redhat > Fedora Development

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 03-04-2010, 01:18 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right

On 03/04/2010 07:27 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>
> That said, IMHO the best solution is still to have this stuff in the
> official updates. But it's true that the kind of issues some users are
> having with KDE 4.4 are unfortunate. This particular Akonadi issue hasn't
> shown up during testing or it would have been considered a blocker.
>

The whole point is that you will invariably find such breakage when
pushing updates like this *after* the release and this is precisely why
there are huge discussions on this topic and sooner you realize that no
matter how careful you are you only increase the risks by doing such
updates mid-release the better off we are towards a reasonable level of
compromise

Rahul
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 03-04-2010, 01:30 PM
Juha Tuomala
 
Default Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> current stable release nor support an official backports repo, an unofficial
> one will no doubt spring up, or an existing unofficial repo will pick up
> that role (for KDE, kde-redhat stable would probably be revived, currently
> it's mostly empty for Fedora as the kind of stuff which would be in there is
> usually just pushed as official Fedora updates).

Go ahead, make that to your kde-hardcore-followers-repo. In my
understanding, that's what it has been for past years already
anyway.

> I would argue having this within Fedora infrastructure would be better as it
> would prevent proliferation of third-party repos replacing Fedora packages
> and the resulting compatibility issues (see e.g. the chaos we're having for
> RHEL with third-party repositories replacing official packages with newer
> versions and the resulting dependency hell) and as it would also provide a
> place for new versions of less commonly-used applications.

So the thing is that KDE SIG wants to prevent any other activity and
keep the strings in own hands. That's why nobody can't enjoy the
upstream's intended stability in bugfix releases and plan major
upgrades.

If someone wants to fork, whatever, let them do it. That's why
Fedora moves to the git, to make it easier.


> That said, IMHO the best solution is still to have this stuff in the
> official updates. But it's true that the kind of issues some users are
> having with KDE 4.4 are unfortunate. This particular Akonadi issue hasn't
> shown up during testing or it would have been considered a blocker.

What you've just proved could have been enough for some companies
trying to run Fedora on their employees desktops and they probably
think that they've seen enough. TCO is rising too high when you
cannot do sane stable release updates.

In other words, SIG's current policy is doing more harm than good
for Fedora.

> But I think having yet another thread about update policies will be frowned
> upon by the moderators. Instead, let's please think about repairing this
> breakage now that it happened, i.e. get bug reports filed etc.

Yes, let's fix the bug instead the policy that caused it in the
first place, sigh.


Tuju

--
Ajatteleva ihminen tarvitsee unta.
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 03-04-2010, 01:31 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right

Juha Tuomala wrote:
> How that's going to solve anything as upstream *intentionally* pushes
> stuff into it to break things?

Nobody intentionally BREAKS things. Upstream KDE releases are supposed to be
backwards compatible, data migration is something which is taken care of.
For example, Nepomuk will migrate your data from the Redland (or Sesame2)
backend used in older KDE releases to Virtuoso which is now the default as
of 4.4. Akonadi also automatically migrates your contacts to the new format.

Kevin Kofler

--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 03-04-2010, 01:34 PM
Jaroslav Reznik
 
Default Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right

On Thursday 04 March 2010 15:01:29 Juha Tuomala wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > You mean the KDE stability proposal? As this is F11, i.e. "previous
> > stable", KDE 4.4 would actually not have been pushed to F11 under that
> > proposal.
>
> How i read it, you would still push *one* feature release in the
> middle of stable release lifespan, right?
>
> How that's going to solve anything as upstream *intentionally* pushes
> stuff into it to break things? Even they don't expect you to do what
> you do.

People who wants stability would be in time of this push to Fn still running
Fn-1. Only people who wants new features would be running Fn. There's no sense
to have two frozen releases out there! We can just support one for 12
months...

I personally think that update every 6 months breaks much more stuff so letting
users to stays as much time with older but still supported releases is what we
really want.
>
> Tuju
>
> --
> Ajatteleva ihminen tarvitsee unta.

--
Jaroslav Řezn*k <jreznik@redhat.com>
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 731 455 332
Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 03-04-2010, 01:38 PM
Thomas Janssen
 
Default Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Juha Tuomala <Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi> wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> current stable release nor support an official backports repo, an unofficial
>> one will no doubt spring up, or an existing unofficial repo will pick up
>> that role (for KDE, kde-redhat stable would probably be revived, currently
>> it's mostly empty for Fedora as the kind of stuff which would be in there is
>> usually just pushed as official Fedora updates).
>
> Go ahead, make that to your kde-hardcore-followers-repo. In my
> understanding, that's what it has been for past years already
> anyway.

There's no need to continued attack the KDE SIG. You're not a first
time linuxer. If you're that scared as you said in your OP, then you
should use yum to exclude that stuff. If you dont know how: man yum ;
man yum.conf

But of course, you couldn't then bash others.

--
LG Thomas

Dubium sapientiae initium
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 03-04-2010, 01:45 PM
Mike McGrath
 
Default Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Thomas Janssen wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Juha Tuomala <Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi> wrote:
> > On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> >> current stable release nor support an official backports repo, an unofficial
> >> one will no doubt spring up, or an existing unofficial repo will pick up
> >> that role (for KDE, kde-redhat stable would probably be revived, currently
> >> it's mostly empty for Fedora as the kind of stuff which would be in there is
> >> usually just pushed as official Fedora updates).
> >
> > Go ahead, make that to your kde-hardcore-followers-repo. In my
> > understanding, that's what it has been for past years already
> > anyway.
>
> There's no need to continued attack the KDE SIG. You're not a first
> time linuxer. If you're that scared as you said in your OP, then you
> should use yum to exclude that stuff. If you dont know how: man yum ;
> man yum.conf
>
> But of course, you couldn't then bash others.
>

Alternatively, the KDE SIG could stop ignoring the problems that were
caused this week by the updates they released. Even an "I'm sorry I broke
your desktop" would go a long way. The update the busted my desktop
happened on a pretty vanilla install, I suspect lots of users experienced
issues.

-Mike
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 03-04-2010, 01:46 PM
Jaroslav Reznik
 
Default Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right

On Thursday 04 March 2010 15:30:43 Juha Tuomala wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > current stable release nor support an official backports repo, an
> > unofficial one will no doubt spring up, or an existing unofficial repo
> > will pick up that role (for KDE, kde-redhat stable would probably be
> > revived, currently it's mostly empty for Fedora as the kind of stuff
> > which would be in there is usually just pushed as official Fedora
> > updates).
>
> Go ahead, make that to your kde-hardcore-followers-repo. In my
> understanding, that's what it has been for past years already
> anyway.

Third party repos are highway to hell unfortunately. Ask former OpenSuse users
Of course - it's one of solutions.

> > I would argue having this within Fedora infrastructure would be better as
> > it would prevent proliferation of third-party repos replacing Fedora
> > packages and the resulting compatibility issues (see e.g. the chaos
> > we're having for RHEL with third-party repositories replacing official
> > packages with newer versions and the resulting dependency hell) and as
> > it would also provide a place for new versions of less commonly-used
> > applications.
>
> So the thing is that KDE SIG wants to prevent any other activity and
> keep the strings in own hands. That's why nobody can't enjoy the
> upstream's intended stability in bugfix releases and plan major
> upgrades.
>
> If someone wants to fork, whatever, let them do it. That's why
> Fedora moves to the git, to make it easier.
>
> > That said, IMHO the best solution is still to have this stuff in the
> > official updates. But it's true that the kind of issues some users are
> > having with KDE 4.4 are unfortunate. This particular Akonadi issue hasn't
> > shown up during testing or it would have been considered a blocker.
>
> What you've just proved could have been enough for some companies
> trying to run Fedora on their employees desktops and they probably
> think that they've seen enough. TCO is rising too high when you
> cannot do sane stable release updates.

Fedora is not for companies - with one year of lifetime it's not very well
suited for any long-term deployment. Use Cent OS - it's not I don't want to
see Fedora there, it's just reality. And Cent OS is just older and more stable
Fedora...

> In other words, SIG's current policy is doing more harm than good
> for Fedora.
>
> > But I think having yet another thread about update policies will be
> > frowned upon by the moderators. Instead, let's please think about
> > repairing this breakage now that it happened, i.e. get bug reports filed
> > etc.
>
> Yes, let's fix the bug instead the policy that caused it in the
> first place, sigh.
>
>
> Tuju
>
> --
> Ajatteleva ihminen tarvitsee unta.

--
Jaroslav Řezn*k <jreznik@redhat.com>
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 731 455 332
Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 03-04-2010, 01:55 PM
Thomas Janssen
 
Default Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Mike McGrath <mmcgrath@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Thomas Janssen wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Juha Tuomala <Juha.Tuomala@iki.fi> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> >> current stable release nor support an official backports repo, an unofficial
>> >> one will no doubt spring up, or an existing unofficial repo will pick up
>> >> that role (for KDE, kde-redhat stable would probably be revived, currently
>> >> it's mostly empty for Fedora as the kind of stuff which would be in there is
>> >> usually just pushed as official Fedora updates).
>> >
>> > Go ahead, make that to your kde-hardcore-followers-repo. In my
>> > understanding, that's what it has been for past years already
>> > anyway.
>>
>> There's no need to continued attack the KDE SIG. You're not a first
>> time linuxer. If you're that scared as you said in your OP, then you
>> should use yum to exclude that stuff. If you dont know how: man yum ;
>> man yum.conf
>>
>> But of course, you couldn't then bash others.
>>
>
> Alternatively, the KDE SIG could stop ignoring the problems that were
> caused this week by the updates they released. *Even an "I'm sorry I broke
> your desktop" would go a long way. *The update the busted my desktop
> happened on a pretty vanilla install, I suspect lots of users experienced
> issues.

You're absolutely right here. And it gets discussed heavily.
I just get slowly sick of all that bashing around. Doesn't matter
which way. The KDE SIG needs a bit time to discuss and decide what
exactly will be done (for sure the right thing to prevent that kind of
breakage). Though systematic annoying pestering will not help at all.

I think the point is already very clear and work (thoughts,
discussion) on it is in progress.

Maybe i should send a mail and ask if it's possible to stop attacking
others. I start to get agressive myself, and i dont like that.

--
LG Thomas

Dubium sapientiae initium
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 03-04-2010, 01:58 PM
Thomas Janssen
 
Default Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Thursday 04 March 2010 15:30:43 Juha Tuomala wrote:
>> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> > current stable release nor support an official backports repo, an
>> > unofficial one will no doubt spring up, or an existing unofficial repo
>> > will pick up that role (for KDE, kde-redhat stable would probably be
>> > revived, currently it's mostly empty for Fedora as the kind of stuff
>> > which would be in there is usually just pushed as official Fedora
>> > updates).
>>
>> Go ahead, make that to your kde-hardcore-followers-repo. In my
>> understanding, that's what it has been for past years already
>> anyway.
>
> Third party repos are highway to hell unfortunately. Ask former OpenSuse users
> Of course - it's one of solutions.

Yes (former/still some installations, openSUSE user here), third party
repos can be a hell. They are definitely not for beginners or
i-dont-care users.

--
LG Thomas

Dubium sapientiae initium
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 
Old 03-04-2010, 02:01 PM
Jaroslav Reznik
 
Default Harmless KDE feature upgrades - yeah right

On Thursday 04 March 2010 15:58:32 Thomas Janssen wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik@redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday 04 March 2010 15:30:43 Juha Tuomala wrote:
> >> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> >> > current stable release nor support an official backports repo, an
> >> > unofficial one will no doubt spring up, or an existing unofficial repo
> >> > will pick up that role (for KDE, kde-redhat stable would probably be
> >> > revived, currently it's mostly empty for Fedora as the kind of stuff
> >> > which would be in there is usually just pushed as official Fedora
> >> > updates).
> >>
> >> Go ahead, make that to your kde-hardcore-followers-repo. In my
> >> understanding, that's what it has been for past years already
> >> anyway.
> >
> > Third party repos are highway to hell unfortunately. Ask former OpenSuse
> > users
> >
> > Of course - it's one of solutions.
>
> Yes (former/still some installations, openSUSE user here), third party
> repos can be a hell. They are definitely not for beginners or
> i-dont-care users.

These repos are not intended for beginners/i-dont-care users but it's hell
even for advanced users - it just screw system... Even I try not to mess with
RPM fussion but it's still needed

--
Jaroslav Řezn*k <jreznik@redhat.com>
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 731 455 332
Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 07:32 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org