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Old 01-10-2008, 03:29 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Linux is not about choice

Jesse Keating wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:31:56 +0100
Patrice Dumas <pertusus@free.fr> wrote:


Why not? One could imagine that somebody steps up to package the stuff
needed by the old firewire stack? I don't know that issue very well,
but I can imagine people wanting to fix things in fedora if they are
annoying them.



Also, there is a /huge/ difference between "I can package this!" and "I
can be responsible for all the bug reports regarding this, and help to
transition folks using this to that, and help improve that along the
way."


This is the philosophical issue - but it applies whether you support
backwards compatiblity or not. In the now diverged firewire juju thread
there is a comment:


"Awesome, we definitely need more help. Neither krh nor I is able to
spend quite as much time on juju as we'd like right now..."


Of course "stuff happens" and things aren't ever going to be perfect,
but why does a fundamental change go in at the device driver level
without providing a way to revert to the previous version unless there
is at least some expectation of having the resources to fix the new
problems that will almost certainly show up?


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Old 01-10-2008, 03:31 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 11:28 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
> udev rules for stable network interface names.

Btw, that would be

/etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules
/etc/udev/rules.d/75-persistent-net-generator.rules

HTH. Follow up with questions on the udev list please.

David


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Old 01-10-2008, 03:40 PM
"Arthur Pemberton"
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Jan 10, 2008 10:31 AM, David Zeuthen <david@fubar.dk> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 11:28 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
> > udev rules for stable network interface names.
>
> Btw, that would be
>
> /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules
> /etc/udev/rules.d/75-persistent-net-generator.rules
>
> HTH. Follow up with questions on the udev list please.


We are badly in need of system-config-udev. I spent several hours
understanding udev adn building rules for my sound cards and tv cards.
I hadn't done a yum update on my F7 box for weeks/months (lazyness)
did one this week, and it apperently just blew away my custom udev
config

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Old 01-10-2008, 03:54 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 10:40 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> We are badly in need of system-config-udev. I spent several hours
> understanding udev adn building rules for my sound cards and tv cards.
> I hadn't done a yum update on my F7 box for weeks/months (lazyness)
> did one this week, and it apperently just blew away my custom udev
> config

Hell no. We are in badly need of this crap just working out of the box.
Throwing configuration / options at the problem will only make it worse.
Trying to explain this to people is apparently impossible since people
keep proposing stupid configuration tools with "unbreak my system"
options.

David


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Old 01-10-2008, 04:00 PM
"Arthur Pemberton"
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Jan 10, 2008 10:54 AM, David Zeuthen <david@fubar.dk> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 10:40 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> > We are badly in need of system-config-udev. I spent several hours
> > understanding udev adn building rules for my sound cards and tv cards.
> > I hadn't done a yum update on my F7 box for weeks/months (lazyness)
> > did one this week, and it apperently just blew away my custom udev
> > config
>
> Hell no. We are in badly need of this crap just working out of the box.
> Throwing configuration / options at the problem will only make it worse.
> Trying to explain this to people is apparently impossible since people
> keep proposing stupid configuration tools with "unbreak my system"
> options.

Most people don't need to worry about udev issues like mine, unless
MythTV with multiple video cards very popular soon

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Old 01-10-2008, 04:00 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Linux is not about choice

David Zeuthen wrote:

Is it a user program that has changed my /dev/hdX into /dev/sdX more or
less arbitrarily - or turns what used to be detected as eth0 into eth2
when a different kernel is booted? Admittedly it has been a while since
I've used Solaris, but I can't recall anything like that ever happening
with it. In a unix-like system where access to everything is through
its device/file name, what is more fundamental than that?


This is a flawed example. The problem is that you're relying on names
assigned in an irregular fashion and it will happen on Solaris as well
if you move disks between controllers etc.


But the old names were predictable; the new ones aren't - when I move a
disk to a new controller/drive position, I know about it.



The way to do this in the
modern world is to rely on persistent names. See /dev/disk/* and the
udev rules for stable network interface names. Of course you can argue
that e.g. /dev/sda or /dev/hda should stay stable but I doubt you're
going to find much sympathy for such a point of view.


What I actually would argue is that a distribution making such changes
should supply tools to migrate configurations based on old conventions
to the new ones. Maybe Fedora doesn't have users with hundreds of
machines and data that needs to span years of operation, but a unix-like
system should be designed to make that practical.


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Old 01-10-2008, 04:03 PM
Nils Philippsen
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 11:54 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 10:40 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> > We are badly in need of system-config-udev. I spent several hours
> > understanding udev adn building rules for my sound cards and tv cards.
> > I hadn't done a yum update on my F7 box for weeks/months (lazyness)
> > did one this week, and it apperently just blew away my custom udev
> > config
>
> Hell no. We are in badly need of this crap just working out of the box.
> Throwing configuration / options at the problem will only make it worse.
> Trying to explain this to people is apparently impossible since people
> keep proposing stupid configuration tools with "unbreak my system"
> options.

There's the bad idea that everything under /etc/ is configurable, but in
reality these rules are "program data" and ideally should go into /share
if that existed (which would avoid people thinking they're meant to
touch that stuff, hopefully).

Nils
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Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:07 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Linux is not about choice

David Zeuthen wrote:


We are badly in need of system-config-udev. I spent several hours
understanding udev adn building rules for my sound cards and tv cards.
I hadn't done a yum update on my F7 box for weeks/months (lazyness)
did one this week, and it apperently just blew away my custom udev
config


Hell no. We are in badly need of this crap just working out of the box.
Throwing configuration / options at the problem will only make it worse.
Trying to explain this to people is apparently impossible since people
keep proposing stupid configuration tools with "unbreak my system"
options.


How can it work 'out of the box' when the person who knows which of many
possible devices is which is separated from the kernel and device driver
by a hidden level of indirection introduced between versions?


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Old 01-10-2008, 04:09 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 11:00 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
> But the old names were predictable; the new ones aren't - when I move a
> disk to a new controller/drive position, I know about it.

Uhm, no. You were just relying on a) limitations in the Linux kernel to
probe devices in a sequential fashion (see big-iron boxes with tens of
thousands of disks why this won't work); and b) the order of your
controllers on the PCI bus. Trying to argue it was "predictable" when it
was a "coincidence" is an interesting spin on reality. It's also wrong;
there's a reason that RHL and Fedora been using LABEL= for ages.

A side effect of Fedora and Linux being modernized is that you have
stable names so in the future problems like you describe will go away.
However, one issue is to make all the stuff in the distro actually take
advantage of new shiny stuff; for example Anaconda just recently started
to take it's first steps in the brave new world. It's a bit sad that it
takes 2-3 years for things like this to happen, maybe someone having
been yelling enough at e.g. the Anaconda team ;-)

> What I actually would argue is that a distribution making such changes
> should supply tools to migrate configurations based on old conventions
> to the new ones. Maybe Fedora doesn't have users with hundreds of
> machines and data that needs to span years of operation, but a unix-like
> system should be designed to make that practical.

No, Fedora is about being on the bleeding edge and creating a system
where you don't *need* to migrate configuration files because the files
will be correct if they are using stable identifiers for devices.

David


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Old 01-10-2008, 04:11 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 18:03 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote:
> There's the bad idea that everything under /etc/ is configurable, but in
> reality these rules are "program data" and ideally should go into /share
> if that existed (which would avoid people thinking they're meant to
> touch that stuff, hopefully).

I agree it's confusing / misleading that udev stores it's rules in /etc.
They are, as you point out, really just program data (at least 99% of
them). I'll talk to upstream about moving the bulk to /lib[64]/udev
instead.

David


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