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Old 01-10-2008, 02:31 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Linux is not about choice

Olivier Galibert wrote:

On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 08:06:53AM -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
Zfs isn't the only interesting thing about opensolaris and Sun does give
you the candy if you take the whole package. It is only the Linux terms
that keep you from adding the parts. Solaris has an entirely different
attitude about backwards compatibility which makes the mention slightly
on topic for this conversation. I can't, for example, imagine them ever
changing a device name arbitrarily and breaking a previously working
configuration while Linux has no such respect for its users' previous
work. Fedora may not be the place for it, but I would seriously like to
see a distribution based on the OpenSolaris kernel and the same user
programs you'd find in a current Linux or *bsd distro.


Given that it's the user programs that have the lack of respect for
previous configurations (Linus considers backwards-compatibility very
important), I doubt you'll see any change for the better.


Is it a user program that has changed my /dev/hdX into /dev/sdX more or
less arbitrarily - or turns what used to be detected as eth0 into eth2
when a different kernel is booted? Admittedly it has been a while since
I've used Solaris, but I can't recall anything like that ever happening
with it. In a unix-like system where access to everything is through
its device/file name, what is more fundamental than that?


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Old 01-10-2008, 02:31 PM
Patrice Dumas
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 04:22:41PM +0100, Christopher Aillon wrote:
> On 01/10/2008 03:50 PM, Patrice Dumas wrote:
>> It is not right if more softwares come with more contributors. Or if the
>> contributors have do it anyway, but cannot easily share what they did.
>
> Sure it does. We're getting contributors to completely new things, not the
> things we're shipping and definitely not the things people are complaining
> about being broken. It's great that people are interested in Fedora, and

Why not? One could imagine that somebody steps up to package the stuff
needed by the old firewire stack? I don't know that issue very well, but
I can imagine people wanting to fix things in fedora if they are
annoying them.

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Old 01-10-2008, 02:42 PM
"Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski"
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thursday, 10 January 2008 at 16:31, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Olivier Galibert wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 08:06:53AM -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
>>> Zfs isn't the only interesting thing about opensolaris and Sun does give
>>> you the candy if you take the whole package. It is only the Linux terms
>>> that keep you from adding the parts. Solaris has an entirely different
>>> attitude about backwards compatibility which makes the mention slightly
>>> on topic for this conversation. I can't, for example, imagine them ever
>>> changing a device name arbitrarily and breaking a previously working
>>> configuration while Linux has no such respect for its users' previous
>>> work. Fedora may not be the place for it, but I would seriously like to
>>> see a distribution based on the OpenSolaris kernel and the same user
>>> programs you'd find in a current Linux or *bsd distro.
>>
>> Given that it's the user programs that have the lack of respect for
>> previous configurations (Linus considers backwards-compatibility very
>> important), I doubt you'll see any change for the better.
>
> Is it a user program that has changed my /dev/hdX into /dev/sdX more or
> less arbitrarily

Can you say "filesystem labels"? I thought so.

> - or turns what used to be detected as eth0 into eth2 when
> a different kernel is booted?

echo -e "alias eth0 module1
alias eth2 module2
" >> /etc/modprobe.conf
has always worked for me.

Have you filed a bug?

Regards,
R.

--
Fedora contributor http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DominikMierzejewski
Livna contributor http://rpm.livna.org MPlayer developer http://mplayerhq.hu
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-- Delenn to Lennier in Babylon 5:"Confessions and Lamentations"

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Old 01-10-2008, 02:47 PM
Patrice Dumas
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 10:29:50AM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
>
> > Indeed. This was an extreme example to avoid getting in the technical
> > argument,
>
> ´╗┐Interesting. So this is a concrete example of how your whole line of
> reasoning is filled with hyperbole.

It is not an hyperbole (I guess that you mean exageration by this word),
it is an example. I used that example because it allows to discuss about
choices. Choices that are done in the fedora community, that have
technical consequences.

> It seems you are using this
> hyperbole, along with mistaken notions of "freedom" and "diversity", as
> a platform for trying to argue that we should be more open to "choice".

I personnally favour the openness to choice, but I am clearly not the only
one to do such an important choice for fedora. It should be clear, however
for fedora contributors what is acceptable.

> > but keep talking on the organisational issues.
>
> So please take this *elsewhere*. I think we should stick to technical
> subjects on this list instead of coming up with wacky examples that is
> beyond ones comprehension.

This is very important, in my opinion, to speak about organizational
subjects and not only strictly technical subjects. I think that what
kind of packages are accepted in fedora is an important question for
the fedora community.

> All you have down here, Patrice, is to screw
> up the SN ratio of this list even more.

That's possible, but not on purpose.

> (Seriously, I don't even know why I'm on this list anymore. Maybe we
> need a fedora-codemonkeys-list where we can ban people using hyperbole
> instead of sticking to technical facts and reality. Perhaps, someone
> could get even some work done on such a list.)

If this list is not for discussing which packages should be acceptable
in fedora which list should be used for that? In my opinion this is the
list where the community members like me and you can voice their concerns.

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Old 01-10-2008, 02:49 PM
Christopher Aillon
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On 01/10/2008 04:31 PM, Patrice Dumas wrote:

On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 04:22:41PM +0100, Christopher Aillon wrote:

On 01/10/2008 03:50 PM, Patrice Dumas wrote:

It is not right if more softwares come with more contributors. Or if the
contributors have do it anyway, but cannot easily share what they did.
Sure it does. We're getting contributors to completely new things, not the
things we're shipping and definitely not the things people are complaining
about being broken. It's great that people are interested in Fedora, and


Why not? One could imagine that somebody steps up to package the stuff
needed by the old firewire stack? I don't know that issue very well, but
I can imagine people wanting to fix things in fedora if they are
annoying them.


Because that's not fixing them, as has been echoed many times. That's
only reintroducing different code. Which works for some people and
breaks for others. Fixing it would mean making it work for everyone.
Or do we not care about that?


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Old 01-10-2008, 02:58 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 16:47 +0100, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> If this list is not for discussing which packages should be acceptable
> in fedora which list should be used for that? In my opinion this is the
> list where the community members like me and you can voice their concerns.

No, that's fedora-list or fedora-advisory-board or whatever list of the
week that non-technical discussions happens on. This list is for
technical discussions - please do avoid participating unless you know
what you are talking about.

David


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Old 01-10-2008, 03:05 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:31:56 +0100
Patrice Dumas <pertusus@free.fr> wrote:

> Why not? One could imagine that somebody steps up to package the stuff
> needed by the old firewire stack? I don't know that issue very well,
> but I can imagine people wanting to fix things in fedora if they are
> annoying them.


Also, there is a /huge/ difference between "I can package this!" and "I
can be responsible for all the bug reports regarding this, and help to
transition folks using this to that, and help improve that along the
way."

--
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Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours?
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:17 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Linux is not about choice

Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote:

Is it a user program that has changed my /dev/hdX into /dev/sdX more or
less arbitrarily


Can you say "filesystem labels"? I thought so.


I can say it won't fix an existing configuration. I can say that
filesystem label creation wasn't well thought out for people that move
disks around (after you've installed fedora on all your machines,
they'll all have the same labels and the system is not happy when you
rebuild a machine with a different combination of drives). I can say
that the design of solaris seems to take machine management over long
intervals of time and large numbers of machines into consideration
whereas Linux does not.


- or turns what used to be detected as eth0 into eth2 when
a different kernel is booted?


echo -e "alias eth0 module1
alias eth2 module2
" >> /etc/modprobe.conf
has always worked for me.


That worked in 2.4 kernels. It doesn't with udev based kernels. And if
you managed some number of machines with multiple interfaces you'd
probably care - especially if they are remote and you lose access when
the network doesn't come up after a reboot.



Have you filed a bug?


Is it a bug or is udev supposed to detect devices in parallel and
dynamically (randomly)? It is the same with /dev/sdX devices. How do I
know which one is /dev/sdh today? And If I don't know, even If I wanted
to use filesystem labels, what would I call the device when I wanted to
create the label? (BTW, what I usually do to work around this issue is
create an md raid device even if it is a single drive with a missing
partner and use the md device name in the fstab entry because at least
so far I have been able to count on consistency in detecting the uuids
and have always gotten unique ones by default).


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Old 01-10-2008, 03:28 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 09:31 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Is it a user program that has changed my /dev/hdX into /dev/sdX more or
> less arbitrarily - or turns what used to be detected as eth0 into eth2
> when a different kernel is booted? Admittedly it has been a while since
> I've used Solaris, but I can't recall anything like that ever happening
> with it. In a unix-like system where access to everything is through
> its device/file name, what is more fundamental than that?

This is a flawed example. The problem is that you're relying on names
assigned in an irregular fashion and it will happen on Solaris as well
if you move disks between controllers etc. The way to do this in the
modern world is to rely on persistent names. See /dev/disk/* and the
udev rules for stable network interface names. Of course you can argue
that e.g. /dev/sda or /dev/hda should stay stable but I doubt you're
going to find much sympathy for such a point of view.

David


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Old 01-10-2008, 03:28 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 09:31 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Is it a user program that has changed my /dev/hdX into /dev/sdX more or
> less arbitrarily - or turns what used to be detected as eth0 into eth2
> when a different kernel is booted? Admittedly it has been a while since
> I've used Solaris, but I can't recall anything like that ever happening
> with it. In a unix-like system where access to everything is through
> its device/file name, what is more fundamental than that?

This is a flawed example. The problem is that you're relying on names
assigned in an irregular fashion and it will happen on Solaris as well
if you move disks between controllers etc. The way to do this in the
modern world is to rely on persistent names. See /dev/disk/* and the
udev rules for stable network interface names. Of course you can argue
that e.g. /dev/sda or /dev/hda should stay stable but I doubt you're
going to find much sympathy for such a point of view.

David


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