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Old 01-09-2008, 10:48 PM
Patrice Dumas
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 06:33:45PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
>
>
> You claimed that there was dozens and dozens of people ready to help
> with such tasks. I submit that is not true. I wish it was.

I am not saying that there are dozens and dozens of people ready to help
for these tasks. I am saying that when there are such people those who
do the mainstream stuff it should let them play instead of being hostile
for parallel/oldish/fun implementations. It has a cost, because there
are always side effects, but it is a price to be paid for community
involvment.

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Old 01-09-2008, 10:57 PM
Patrice Dumas
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 12:48:17AM +0100, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 06:33:45PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
> >
> >
> > You claimed that there was dozens and dozens of people ready to help
> > with such tasks. I submit that is not true. I wish it was.
>
> I am not saying that there are dozens and dozens of people ready to help
> for these tasks. I am saying that when there are such people those who
> do the mainstream stuff it should let them play instead of being hostile
> for parallel/oldish/fun implementations. It has a cost, because there
> are always side effects, but it is a price to be paid for community
> involvment.

It should have been:

I am not saying that there are dozens and dozens of people ready to help
for these tasks. I am saying that, when there are such people, those who
do the mainstream stuff should let them play instead of being hostile
for parallel/oldish/fun implementations. It has a cost, because there
are always side effects, but it is a price to be paid for community
involvment.

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Old 01-09-2008, 10:59 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 00:57 +0100, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> I am not saying that there are dozens and dozens of people ready to help
> for these tasks. I am saying that, when there are such people, those who
> do the mainstream stuff should let them play instead of being hostile
> for parallel/oldish/fun implementations. It has a cost, because there
> are always side effects, but it is a price to be paid for community
> involvment.

Sure, and if I had a pony I'm sure my life would be honky-dory. You're
also deliberately ignoring that the issue of qualified man-power is only
_one_ aspect of this discussion.

David


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Old 01-09-2008, 11:02 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Wed, 2008-01-09 at 18:59 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 00:57 +0100, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> > I am not saying that there are dozens and dozens of people ready to help
> > for these tasks. I am saying that, when there are such people, those who
> > do the mainstream stuff should let them play instead of being hostile
> > for parallel/oldish/fun implementations. It has a cost, because there
> > are always side effects, but it is a price to be paid for community
> > involvment.
>
> Sure, and if I had a pony I'm sure my life would be honky-dory. You're
> also deliberately ignoring that the issue of qualified man-power is only
> _one_ aspect of this discussion.

Uh, I meant. Something about that there are more aspects to this
discussion that just man power. Such as even if we had people willing to
e.g. maintain two firewire stacks we probably wouldn't want to do that
because of the added complexity. Hope this clarifies.

David


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Old 01-09-2008, 11:08 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Linux is not about choice

Patrice Dumas wrote:



Linux is about choice.

If I could only have one thing this year, it would be to eliminate that
meme from the collective consciousness. It is a disease. It strangles
the mind and ensures you can never change anything ever because someone
somewhere has OCD'd their environment exactly how they like it and how
dare you change it on them you're so mean and next time I have friends
over for Buffy night you're not invited mom he's sitting on my side
again.

Damn you where's my FreeBSD kernel package for Fedora?


I guess that you are joking, but I think that a FreeBSD kernel package
is perfectly right for fedora. It should not go in a stable release
until it is stable, and could be less well integrated than the linux
kernel but it would definitively be something interesting.



Can we have OpenSolaris (with zfs) too? I was going to point out that
Linux wasn't about choice but about providing a free and compatible
alternative to Unix. But this would complete the circle...


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Old 01-09-2008, 11:19 PM
Patrice Dumas
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 07:19:48PM -0500, Adam Jackson wrote:
>
> Partly that's just how software _works_. You don't ever ship anything
> 100% perfect because it's not an achievable goal. But, partly because
> it's just observed reality of how the project is staffed. For many of
> the features that people consider vitally important we have at best a
> small team of contributors.

In that case let them do what they think best.

> > Isn't the fedora contributors time used like they want to?
>
> Oh man. If only.

Not in that sense, of course. What I am saying is that if somebody wants
to work on something even if it is not where the main strand of fedora,
even if it leads to having parallel stuff he should not be deterred.

> > If there are three parts, and three interactions but dozens of contributors
> > willing to fix them where is the issue?
>
> We don't _have_ dozens of contributors willing to fix them. I can count
> the number of unsolicited X patches I've received from random Fedora
> people on one hand. Statistically speaking, zero bug reports come with
> patches attached. Again, this is just a reality of software. Most
> users are not developers. There is no reason to ever expect this to
> change.

I can't see the connection with patches.

> Go read No Silver Bullet again. Software is hard. Complexity is the
> essence of the problem. Complexity is a handshake problem, n(n-1)/2.

That's just untrue. Not everything interacts in complex ways with
everything. Also adding some complexity may some time reduce development
costs when some comparisons become possible when similar software
coexist.

> You can not just throw manpower at the problem, because the
> communication problem between the developers is also a handshake
> problem. The only solution is radical simplicity.

It isn't that simple. Do we also want community handle on fedora or
not? I really like redhat leadership and innovations, but I don't want
to be a puppet either. If people from the community with specific needs
and wants are to be accepted in fedora, it means that radical simplicity
is not possible.

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Old 01-09-2008, 11:19 PM
Adam Jackson
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Wed, 2008-01-09 at 23:47 +0100, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 03:58:45PM -0500, Adam Jackson wrote:
> > The complaints up-thread about juju and pulse are entirely valid, but
> > the solution is not to try to deliver two things at once. If you try to
> > deliver both at once you have to also deliver a way of switching between
> > the two. Now you have three moving parts instead of one, which means
> > the failure rate has gone up by a factor of _six_ (three parts, and
> > three interactions). We have essentially already posited that we have
> > insufficient developer effort to have 100%-complete features at ship
> > time, so asking them to take on six times the failure rate when they're
> > already overburdened is just madness. Alternatively, we could say that
>
> Who 'essentially already posited that we have insufficient developer
> effort'? Who decided that, and for what task?

Partly that's just how software _works_. You don't ever ship anything
100% perfect because it's not an achievable goal. But, partly because
it's just observed reality of how the project is staffed. For many of
the features that people consider vitally important we have at best a
small team of contributors.

> Isn't the fedora contributors time used like they want to?

Oh man. If only.

> If there are three parts, and three interactions but dozens of contributors
> willing to fix them where is the issue?

If the moon were made of cheese, would you eat it?

We don't _have_ dozens of contributors willing to fix them. I can count
the number of unsolicited X patches I've received from random Fedora
people on one hand. Statistically speaking, zero bug reports come with
patches attached. Again, this is just a reality of software. Most
users are not developers. There is no reason to ever expect this to
change.

Go read No Silver Bullet again. Software is hard. Complexity is the
essence of the problem. Complexity is a handshake problem, n(n-1)/2.
You can not just throw manpower at the problem, because the
communication problem between the developers is also a handshake
problem. The only solution is radical simplicity.

I would love it if for every compromise problem like firewire we had a
team of people ready to step up and own the transition and all the
consequent complexity.

We don't. We never will.

- ajax

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Old 01-09-2008, 11:23 PM
Patrice Dumas
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 07:02:11PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
>
> Uh, I meant. Something about that there are more aspects to this
> discussion that just man power. Such as even if we had people willing to
> e.g. maintain two firewire stacks we probably wouldn't want to do that
> because of the added complexity. Hope this clarifies.

Hope it is untrue. I mean, maybe we wouldn't want to do that because of
the added complexity, but this should be discussed and not just
dismissed.

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Old 01-09-2008, 11:38 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 01:19 +0100, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> It isn't that simple. Do we also want community handle on fedora or
> not? I really like redhat leadership and innovations, but I don't want
> to be a puppet either. If people from the community with specific needs
> and wants are to be accepted in fedora, it means that radical simplicity
> is not possible.

Oh nice. Now you're playing the "RH vs. community" card. Priceless. News
flash: this is _not_ about RH vs. the community. It's about realizing
that software development is _hard_. It's about realizing that throwing
options and toggles at the problem very very rarely gives you something
good. What it does give you is a lot of confused users (look around;
we're getting better but it's still really bad) including e.g. UI crap
for selecting the driver stack of the week or whatever.

This essay is more than five years old

http://ometer.com/free-software-ui.html

I suggest you read it. It's not completely related to this topic but if
you think about it long enough there's some glaring analogies to be
made.

David


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Old 01-09-2008, 11:52 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Wed, 09.01.08 16:28, David Zeuthen (david@fubar.dk) wrote:

> Best mail on this list I've ever read.

Me too, but I guess I might be a bit biased on this one. ;-)

Lennart

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