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Old 01-09-2008, 09:54 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Wed, 2008-01-09 at 23:47 +0100, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> Who 'essentially already posited that we have insufficient developer
> effort'? Who decided that, and for what task? Isn't the fedora
> contributors time used like they want to? If there are three parts,
> and three interactions but dozens of contributors willing to fix
> them where is the issue?

One issue is that most packagers maintainers in the Fedora Project are
not code monkeys. Another issue is that complexity has this funny habit
of growing exponentially with the number of moving parts...

David


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Old 01-09-2008, 10:06 PM
Patrice Dumas
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 05:54:51PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2008-01-09 at 23:47 +0100, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> > Who 'essentially already posited that we have insufficient developer
> > effort'? Who decided that, and for what task? Isn't the fedora
> > contributors time used like they want to? If there are three parts,
> > and three interactions but dozens of contributors willing to fix
> > them where is the issue?
>
> One issue is that most packagers maintainers in the Fedora Project are
> not code monkeys.

Do you have other words that would say the same, but understandable by a
non native speaker...

> Another issue is that complexity has this funny habit
> of growing exponentially with the number of moving parts...

That's possible, and I am not advocating to let everything go in any
direction, be it only because some of the burden fails on other
packagers (misfiled bugs, complex issues that seems to arise from a
package but in fact comes from another temporarily broken) but a middle
ground is needed in which developpers, especially from the community can
also do what they want in fedora to pursue their own (innovative or
simply usefull).

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Old 01-09-2008, 10:16 PM
Andrew Farris
 
Default Linux is not about choice

Patrice Dumas wrote:

On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 05:54:51PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:

One issue is that most packagers maintainers in the Fedora Project are
not code monkeys.


Do you have other words that would say the same, but understandable by a
non native speaker...


Explanation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_monkey
(often means 'person who only programs' opposed to engineer/designer, but I
really think he meant 'programmer' versus 'packager' in a nicer way, in that
most packagers can't always fix all the code bugs)


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Old 01-09-2008, 10:16 PM
Matej Cepl
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On 2008-01-09, 20:52 GMT, Dave Airlie wrote:
> Damn you where's my FreeBSD kernel package for Fedora?

You have to for it somewhere else
http://www.us.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/

:-)

Matěj

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Old 01-09-2008, 10:18 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:06:42 +0100
Patrice Dumas <pertusus@free.fr> wrote:

> > One issue is that most packagers maintainers in the Fedora Project
> > are not code monkeys.
>
> Do you have other words that would say the same, but understandable
> by a non native speaker..

He's saying that most our package maintainers are not actual code
developers, but instead folks that know and understand how to package
software. A valuable skill set, but not the skill set needed for
developing software itself. See other threads recently on this topic.

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Old 01-09-2008, 10:19 PM
"Jon Stanley"
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Jan 9, 2008 6:06 PM, Patrice Dumas <pertusus@free.fr> wrote:

> Do you have other words that would say the same, but understandable by a
> non native speaker...


Sure - what's being said is that some or most Fedora package
maintainers are not programmers or coders, but rather packager.

Adding my own $0.02 here, I'm not sure that this is a problem. Coders
code - they are often not good packagers/release engineering folk.
However the packagers need the coding community behind them.

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Old 01-09-2008, 10:24 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 00:06 +0100, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 05:54:51PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 2008-01-09 at 23:47 +0100, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> > > Who 'essentially already posited that we have insufficient developer
> > > effort'? Who decided that, and for what task? Isn't the fedora
> > > contributors time used like they want to? If there are three parts,
> > > and three interactions but dozens of contributors willing to fix
> > > them where is the issue?
> >
> > One issue is that most packagers maintainers in the Fedora Project are
> > not code monkeys.
>
> Do you have other words that would say the same, but understandable by a
> non native speaker...

I just meant that most (certainly not all) Fedora package maintainers
don't know how to write/debug code, create patches that will be accepted
upstream, understand complex interactions involving multiple packages
and processes (sometimes even user/kernel boundaries) and so on - you
know, what programmers do.

While this is probably fine for the majority of our packages (I mean,
it's perfectly fine to package software even if you can't program), it's
probably going to be a problem in situations like the proposed ones.

David


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Old 01-09-2008, 10:30 PM
Patrice Dumas
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 06:24:08PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
>
> I just meant that most (certainly not all) Fedora package maintainers
> don't know how to write/debug code, create patches that will be accepted
> upstream, understand complex interactions involving multiple packages
> and processes (sometimes even user/kernel boundaries) and so on - you
> know, what programmers do.
>
> While this is probably fine for the majority of our packages (I mean,
> it's perfectly fine to package software even if you can't program), it's
> probably going to be a problem in situations like the proposed ones.

That's sure people should not do things they cannot manage, but I can't
see how it is related with the issues above. And notice that it is Hans
who started the thread...

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Old 01-09-2008, 10:33 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 00:30 +0100, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 06:24:08PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
> >
> > I just meant that most (certainly not all) Fedora package maintainers
> > don't know how to write/debug code, create patches that will be accepted
> > upstream, understand complex interactions involving multiple packages
> > and processes (sometimes even user/kernel boundaries) and so on - you
> > know, what programmers do.
> >
> > While this is probably fine for the majority of our packages (I mean,
> > it's perfectly fine to package software even if you can't program), it's
> > probably going to be a problem in situations like the proposed ones.
>
> That's sure people should not do things they cannot manage, but I can't
> see how it is related with the issues above.

You claimed that there was dozens and dozens of people ready to help
with such tasks. I submit that is not true. I wish it was.

David

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Old 01-09-2008, 10:36 PM
Patrice Dumas
 
Default Linux is not about choice

On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 06:52:52AM +1000, Dave Airlie wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-01-09 at 15:58 -0500, Adam Jackson wrote:
> > > Linux is about choice.
> >
> > If I could only have one thing this year, it would be to eliminate that
> > meme from the collective consciousness. It is a disease. It strangles
> > the mind and ensures you can never change anything ever because someone
> > somewhere has OCD'd their environment exactly how they like it and how
> > dare you change it on them you're so mean and next time I have friends
> > over for Buffy night you're not invited mom he's sitting on my side
> > again.
>
> Damn you where's my FreeBSD kernel package for Fedora?

I guess that you are joking, but I think that a FreeBSD kernel package
is perfectly right for fedora. It should not go in a stable release
until it is stable, and could be less well integrated than the linux
kernel but it would definitively be something interesting.

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