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Old 02-18-2010, 01:38 AM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 01:32:33 +0100,
Christoph Wickert <christoph.wickert@googlemail.com> wrote:
> There is more flexibility for n+2 but I doubt that anybody will/can make
> use of it. We not even have a feature process for F14, so why would
> anyone start a feature now?

Because it didn't make it for F13?

I have stuff I want to start doing for F14 or F13 updates. There is a
dependency on something in linux-next, though I can start doing some stuff
before the 2.6.34 kernel lands in F14.
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Old 02-18-2010, 02:18 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

Jesse Keating wrote:
> Yes, that may be true. It is unfortunate that you'll now have to do a
> buildroot override task, but that was a negative impact we were willing
> to take.

The question is, wouldn't it have been possible to, yes, branch early so
Rawhide could move on (as we did), but have builds from F-13 land directly
in dist-f13 until the Beta Freeze (as was done in the past and worked quite
well)?

> As I said in other mails, if you're seeing a long lag in tag
> requests, we can try to grow the list of folks with tag rights to cover
> other time zones.

I think that'd be a good idea. My tag requests for buildroot overrides
usually only get processed when rdieter is up, even if I file them in the
rel-eng Trac. ;-)

Kevin Kofler

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Old 02-18-2010, 02:30 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

Till Maas wrote:
> I'll remember this. But why don't you use a special tag for this instead
> of a buildroot override? I believe this question is not answered and I
> even might have asked it once in IRC. ;-)

Because, as has been said earlier in this thread, special tags also have
their problems:
* explosion of special tags. If we had used a special tag for all the KDE
upgrades (which all needed buildroot overrides, or would have under the
current procedure) since F12 Alpha (which had 4.3.0), we'd now have:
dist-f12-kde431
dist-f12-kde432
== beta was here (so the above didn't need buildroot overrides under the old
system), F12 final also shipped with 4.3.2 ==
dist-f12-kde433
dist-f12-kde434
dist-f12-kde435
dist-f12-kde440
For F11, (counting from Beta because that was the old system with
Alpha/Beta/Preview), we'd have all these plus 4 more (4.2.2, 4.2.3, 4.2.4,
4.3.0).
If every grouped update did that, Koji would be littered with special tags.
* problems with merging from the special tags (what if dist-f12-kde440 and
dist-f12-someotherlib123 both carry their own rebuilds of, say, compiz? It
might not even get noticed if they're on different special tags. Depending
on which of the builds "wins", one or the other dependency will be broken)

Kevin Kofler

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Old 02-18-2010, 02:44 AM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Thu, 2010-02-18 at 04:18 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> The question is, wouldn't it have been possible to, yes, branch early so
> Rawhide could move on (as we did), but have builds from F-13 land directly
> in dist-f13 until the Beta Freeze (as was done in the past and worked quite
> well)?

While it would have been possible, it would have been counter-productive
to our effort to keep the branched tree stable. History has shown that
developers don't always make the best decisions and ruin the party for
everybody. Now we're providing a public sandbox to test things before
they hit the tree.

>
> > As I said in other mails, if you're seeing a long lag in tag
> > requests, we can try to grow the list of folks with tag rights to cover
> > other time zones.
>
> I think that'd be a good idea. My tag requests for buildroot overrides
> usually only get processed when rdieter is up, even if I file them in the
> rel-eng Trac. ;-)

You're in Austria right? Rex wakes up before I do, which is why he's
hitting them before me. Finding somebody on the other side of the pond
who's interested in doing releng work would help.

Other options are to have dist-f13-build feed directly from
dist-f13-updates-candidate. There is some risk there though, of things
being built against other things but not pushed together.

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Old 02-18-2010, 02:47 AM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Thu, 2010-02-18 at 04:30 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Till Maas wrote:
> > I'll remember this. But why don't you use a special tag for this instead
> > of a buildroot override? I believe this question is not answered and I
> > even might have asked it once in IRC. ;-)
>
> Because, as has been said earlier in this thread, special tags also have
> their problems:
> * explosion of special tags. If we had used a special tag for all the KDE
> upgrades (which all needed buildroot overrides, or would have under the
> current procedure) since F12 Alpha (which had 4.3.0), we'd now have:
> dist-f12-kde431
> dist-f12-kde432
> == beta was here (so the above didn't need buildroot overrides under the old
> system), F12 final also shipped with 4.3.2 ==
> dist-f12-kde433
> dist-f12-kde434
> dist-f12-kde435
> dist-f12-kde440
> For F11, (counting from Beta because that was the old system with
> Alpha/Beta/Preview), we'd have all these plus 4 more (4.2.2, 4.2.3, 4.2.4,
> 4.3.0).
> If every grouped update did that, Koji would be littered with special tags.
> * problems with merging from the special tags (what if dist-f12-kde440 and
> dist-f12-someotherlib123 both carry their own rebuilds of, say, compiz? It
> might not even get noticed if they're on different special tags. Depending
> on which of the builds "wins", one or the other dependency will be broken)
>
> Kevin Kofler
>

We don't keep the tags around, we can remove them once the builds have
been merged.

As far as a special tag carrying a build different from the main tag, we
have scripts that check for this situation so that integration folks
like me can sort it out.

We obviously don't want to do special tags for every single set of
updates, but for larger sets it does make sense. Release Engineering is
here to serve that need and take care of these issues.

--
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:52 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

Jesse Keating wrote:
> You're in Austria right?

Yes. But my wake times tend to be very chaotic. ;-)

> Rex wakes up before I do, which is why he's hitting them before me.
> Finding somebody on the other side of the pond who's interested in doing
> releng work would help.

Right, having somebody who's consistently available at European morning and
early afternoon times process tag requests would be nice. I don't think I
would be a good choice myself, see the previous paragraph. ;-)

Quite often, when we do KDE builds, Rex and I get up around the same time,
we coordinate builds and buildroot overrides on IRC and then I end up going
to sleep an hour or two *after* him. ;-)

Kevin Kofler

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Old 02-18-2010, 08:00 AM
Till Maas
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 04:30:31AM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:

> If every grouped update did that, Koji would be littered with special tags.
> * problems with merging from the special tags (what if dist-f12-kde440 and
> dist-f12-someotherlib123 both carry their own rebuilds of, say, compiz? It
> might not even get noticed if they're on different special tags. Depending
> on which of the builds "wins", one or the other dependency will be broken)

KDE grouped updates are usually a lot bigger than most of the other
grouped updates, e.g. this has 60 packages in it:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F11/FEDORA-2010-1850

Sometimes I create also a grouped update, which only contains two
packages, a library and the only package depending on it. So there is a
huge range that obviously needs to handled differently. If all packages
in an update set are maintained by the same group, there is no harm in
using a buildroot override. But as soon as several different maintainers
and there are a lot of packages to be updated and the buildroot
override is there for a long time, then using custom tags seem to be
appropriate for me.

Regards
Till
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Old 02-18-2010, 10:59 AM
Till Maas
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 07:44:30PM -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:

> You're in Austria right? Rex wakes up before I do, which is why he's
> hitting them before me. Finding somebody on the other side of the pond
> who's interested in doing releng work would help.

I volunteer to help with buildroot overrides assuming that it does not
take that much time. I am located in CET/UTC+1, too. Is there maybe a
schedule about how well the timeslots are covered?

Regards
Till
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Old 02-18-2010, 02:36 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Thu, 2010-02-18 at 12:59 +0100, Till Maas wrote:
> I volunteer to help with buildroot overrides assuming that it does not
> take that much time. I am located in CET/UTC+1, too. Is there maybe a
> schedule about how well the timeslots are covered?

Great!

We don't really have a coverage list, but most of the people who have
been doing tagging are all in the US time zones, so anything outside of
that is welcome.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Buildroot_override_SOP is the working SOP
we have for this, although I notice it doesn't say what to do with the
tickets. We typically assign the ticket to ourself, whoever is doing
the tag, so that when the reporter says the build is done we see it and
can do the untag and close the ticket.

https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/report/3 can help you somewhat see the
open tickets, if there is a tag request ticket assigned to rel-eng@ that
means it likely hasn't been operated on.

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Old 02-18-2010, 04:22 PM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

Am Donnerstag, den 18.02.2010, 07:36 -0800 schrieb Jesse Keating:

> We typically assign the ticket to ourself, whoever is doing
> the tag, so that when the reporter says the build is done we see it and
> can do the untag and close the ticket.

If the ticket is assigned to a single person, I doubt we can do the
overwrites in a timely manner. Remember, I'm wasn't talking about a
single overwrite but about large build chains that require 8 or 9 rounds
of builds and up to 15 overwrites. And if the requester is in a
different timezone then the ticket assignee, it surely will take several
days.

Regards,
Christoph

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