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Old 02-17-2010, 09:40 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

Till Maas wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 03:28:37PM +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>
>> Take KDE for example: Although the KDE SIG is doing a great job in
>> avoiding breakdowns, I doubt that each and every maintainer of a QT or
>> KDE app is always aware of the changes before they happen. If things
>> still seem to be working in F-13 or rawhide, he might not even be aware
>> of the custom tag.
>
> Yes, I know, because I co-maintain a package using qt and I recently
> read something from the maintainer that he can not push a bugfix update
> to stable, because a qt override is in the buildroot.

The solution there is to talk to us, we can get the Qt 4.6 stuff off the
buildroot for a while so he can build his bugfix update. That's what
#fedora-kde is for. (IRC is the best communication method for this stuff
because it's real time, please use it!)

Kevin Kofler

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Old 02-17-2010, 09:45 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

Matthias Clasen wrote:
> I don't use chain builds when updating gnome, so it can be done.
> Please just complain for yourself...

The problem is that in KDE, the application modules from 4.x.n need to be
built against at least kdelibs 4.x.n, not 4.x.n-1 (and likewise for other
dependencies). (Often 4.x.n-1 works, but not always, and upstream doesn't
support it, so we always use matching releases. This requires buildroot
overrides in a non-self-populating buildroot.) This can be due to several
reasons: fixes in macros or inline functions, new APIs backported because
they were required to fix a bug, API change in something like kdebase-
workspace which doesn't have a guaranteed API/ABI (requiring e.g. kdeplasma-
addons to be built against the latest kdebase-workspace) etc.

XFCE may be similar.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 02-17-2010, 09:50 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 23:21 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Jesse Keating wrote:
> > There is one small wrinkle. I've "broken" the dist-rawhide static repo,
> > because I've made dist-rawhide a real build target to be used by builds
> > from devel/. I'll be making a symlink soon that will keep
> > "dist-rawhide" static repos pointed to the right location.
>
> Why not use dist-f14?
>
> Kevin Kofler
>

It makes some configs more simple, and helps a bunch with dist-git.
With dist-git we can assume that a build from master goes to
dist-rawhide, and a build from a branch goes to
dist-f##-updates-candidate and the ## comes from a 'branch' file within
the branch.

--
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:52 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

Christoph Wickert wrote:
> This means that large updates like Gnome, KDE or Xfce will get massively
> delayed after alpha. They might not make it into one of the prereleases,
> which means they get less testing. A lot of features will no longer be
> possible in their current state.
>
> How do we address this issue?

For KDE, the same way as always, we'll just work with buildroot overrides,
we've done it during other freeze periods already. Even in the past, the
buildroots stopped being self-populating at final devel freeze. The only
change now is that this is happening 1 month earlier now.

That said, I wonder if it wouldn't make more sense to leave the buildroots
(and presumably the dist-f13 tag as well) to self-populate until the Beta
Freeze (formerly "final devel freeze"). It'd be perfectly possible to do
this even with the F13 branch existing. But I guess the decision has already
been made.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 02-17-2010, 10:24 PM
Sven Lankes
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:40:15PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:

>> Yes, I know, because I co-maintain a package using qt and I recently
>> read something from the maintainer that he can not push a bugfix update
>> to stable, because a qt override is in the buildroot.

> The solution there is to talk to us, we can get the Qt 4.6 stuff off the
> buildroot for a while so he can build his bugfix update. That's what
> #fedora-kde is for. (IRC is the best communication method for this stuff
> because it's real time, please use it!)

I'm assuming that Till is talking about my comment
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=549717#c2 on merkaartor
(which he co-maintains).

So nothing to see here - please move on. This is about not being able to
do a scratch build of an svn-snapshot of merkaartor. Nothing that I
would ever push to a stable release.

I am well aware of the possibility to un-push qt from the buildroot but
this was not a situation where that was needed.

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Old 02-17-2010, 10:45 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

Sven Lankes wrote:
> I'm assuming that Till is talking about my comment
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=549717#c2 on merkaartor
> (which he co-maintains).
>
> So nothing to see here - please move on. This is about not being able to
> do a scratch build of an svn-snapshot of merkaartor. Nothing that I
> would ever push to a stable release.
>
> I am well aware of the possibility to un-push qt from the buildroot but
> this was not a situation where that was needed.

Yeah, fiddling with buildroot for a scratch build is a bit overkill. :-)

(That said, if the SVN snapshot fixes some important bug, I'd consider
pushing it, depending on how long it is until the release.)

Kevin Kofler

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Old 02-17-2010, 11:32 PM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

Am Mittwoch, den 17.02.2010, 06:45 -0800 schrieb Jesse Keating:
> On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 15:28 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> >
> > Right, now there no longer is early branching for selected packages on
> > demand but a general early branches for all packages.
>
> Except it's not really early. We're now in bugfix/polish mode for
> Fedora 13, not in rapid development mode. Rapid development for Fedora
> 14 started now.

This only works for things developed in Fedora or for projects like
Gnome, because we are closely following their schedule. Other projects
have other schedules and we need to be flexible. I really like no frozen
rawhide, but IMO we have lost some flexibility for the n+1 release.
There is more flexibility for n+2 but I doubt that anybody will/can make
use of it. We not even have a feature process for F14, so why would
anyone start a feature now?

> > I think we still need to be able to treat F-13 different than in the
> > released branches, at least before beta freeze.
>
> The beta milestone is when we're supposed to have all the bugs fixed,
> not when we stop throwing in development builds.

Right, but upgrading from Xfce 4.8 pre1 to pre2 *is* bugfixing.

Regards,
Christoph

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Old 02-17-2010, 11:40 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Thu, 2010-02-18 at 01:32 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> This only works for things developed in Fedora or for projects like
> Gnome, because we are closely following their schedule. Other projects
> have other schedules and we need to be flexible. I really like no frozen
> rawhide, but IMO we have lost some flexibility for the n+1 release.
> There is more flexibility for n+2 but I doubt that anybody will/can make
> use of it. We not even have a feature process for F14, so why would
> anyone start a feature now?

Because often the work of a feature needs more time than the short 3
months we've seen before between N release and N+1 feature freeze. And
often times the features are done or near done by the time FESCo votes
on them, starting early is a good thing.

>
> > > I think we still need to be able to treat F-13 different than in the
> > > released branches, at least before beta freeze.
> >
> > The beta milestone is when we're supposed to have all the bugs fixed,
> > not when we stop throwing in development builds.
>
> Right, but upgrading from Xfce 4.8 pre1 to pre2 *is* bugfixing.

Yes, that may be true. It is unfortunate that you'll now have to do a
buildroot override task, but that was a negative impact we were willing
to take. As I said in other mails, if you're seeing a long lag in tag
requests, we can try to grow the list of folks with tag rights to cover
other time zones. Use of koji wait-repo can help here, and nearly
replicate chain-build.

--
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:23 AM
Till Maas
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:24:45AM +0100, Sven Lankes wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:40:15PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>
> >> Yes, I know, because I co-maintain a package using qt and I recently
> >> read something from the maintainer that he can not push a bugfix update
> >> to stable, because a qt override is in the buildroot.
>
> > The solution there is to talk to us, we can get the Qt 4.6 stuff off the
> > buildroot for a while so he can build his bugfix update. That's what
> > #fedora-kde is for. (IRC is the best communication method for this stuff
> > because it's real time, please use it!)
>
> I'm assuming that Till is talking about my comment
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=549717#c2 on merkaartor
> (which he co-maintains).
>
> So nothing to see here - please move on. This is about not being able to
> do a scratch build of an svn-snapshot of merkaartor. Nothing that I
> would ever push to a stable release.

Yes, this was the comment I meant. Since it seems to be easily possible
to push an updated merkaartor package, I am more in favor to push it.
The bug is already two months old and renders the Fedora package for the
reporter useless. Also merkaartor upstream provides windows binary
releases based on snapshots:
http://www.merkaartor.org/

Regards
Till
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:26 AM
Till Maas
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:40:15PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Till Maas wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 03:28:37PM +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> >
> >> Take KDE for example: Although the KDE SIG is doing a great job in
> >> avoiding breakdowns, I doubt that each and every maintainer of a QT or
> >> KDE app is always aware of the changes before they happen. If things
> >> still seem to be working in F-13 or rawhide, he might not even be aware
> >> of the custom tag.
> >
> > Yes, I know, because I co-maintain a package using qt and I recently
> > read something from the maintainer that he can not push a bugfix update
> > to stable, because a qt override is in the buildroot.
>
> The solution there is to talk to us, we can get the Qt 4.6 stuff off the
> buildroot for a while so he can build his bugfix update. That's what
> #fedora-kde is for. (IRC is the best communication method for this stuff
> because it's real time, please use it!)

I'll remember this. But why don't you use a special tag for this instead
of a buildroot override? I believe this question is not answered and I
even might have asked it once in IRC. ;-)

Regards
Till
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