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Old 02-17-2010, 02:12 PM
Till Maas
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 03:28:37PM +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, den 17.02.2010, 15:07 +0100 schrieb Till Maas:
> > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 02:23:22PM +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> >
> > > ...
> >
> > Usually when some of mine packages need to be rebuild because of updated
> > dependencies, the communication is usually one-way. I get informed that
> > the packages needs to be rebuild and then it happens soon afterwards,
>
> You are lucky. In the past people broke my package without further
> notice and I had to take care of fixing them. On the other hand there
> are maintainers, that announce changes in advance and ask me if I'm fine
> with them rebuilding my packages or if I want to take care of this
> myself. This is how it should be but only proven packagers will be able
> to do this.

I guess a recommended procedure for this is not really documented in the
wiki, but since I was never in the situation to rebuild a bunch of
dependent packages, I do not really know.

> Take KDE for example: Although the KDE SIG is doing a great job in
> avoiding breakdowns, I doubt that each and every maintainer of a QT or
> KDE app is always aware of the changes before they happen. If things
> still seem to be working in F-13 or rawhide, he might not even be aware
> of the custom tag.

Yes, I know, because I co-maintain a package using qt and I recently
read something from the maintainer that he can not push a bugfix update
to stable, because a qt override is in the buildroot.

> > therefore I do not even have to know how the tag is called. There are
> > also scripts that help to do this easily afaik. This is also the
> > advantage of using a tag, because then I can still create bugfixes by
> > myself without being disturbed my the buildroots. Off course then the
> > package also needs to be rebuilt in the staging tag, but this can be
> > easily automated and already might be.
>
> Honestly, I don't recall automated updates of my packages except for the
> mass rebuilds from rel-eng. If the people that break things and/or
> requested the custom tag will take care of this, we are fine, bug FWIW
> it's not like this in rawhide. Let's see how it turns out in F-13.

I remember this for python and openssl and I believe the haskell or
ocaml SIG did this for their packages, too.

> > and F-13 is now stabilizing and afaik should be treated
> > more like it was stable than like it is rawhide. E.g. major updates
> > should now break rawhide first and if the fallout is handled, then it
> > could be done for F-13.
>
> I think we still need to be able to treat F-13 different than in the
> released branches, at least before beta freeze. If we need to do things
> in rawhide first and only push these changes to F-13 afterwards, a
> feature with a tight schedule like Xfce 4.8 is lost. That's just what I
> said.

It would be sad to loose the feature, only because of the schedule, but
I guess there will always be some feature that needs to be postponed
because of missing some deadline shortly. Nevertheless it would be good
to speed up procedures to get as much features as possible. So maybe you
can already request the tag you will need once Xfce 4.8 is released to
start building it as soon as it is released.

Regards
Till

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Old 02-17-2010, 02:33 PM
Till Maas
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 08:10:17PM -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
> That's right folks, we are now branched for Fedora 13. What does this
> mean to you? Well that depends on who "you" are, here are some "you"s
> that we wrote about:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/No_frozen_rawhide_announce_plan#Use_Cases
>
> The real take away here is explained at
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Branch_Freeze_Policy

Is the branch freeze a week late or is it now the same as the alpha
freeze? In the "Important Release Milestones" wiki page[0], the branch
was scheduled for 2010-02-09, but on the F13 Schedule[1], the "Alpha
Freeze" links to the "Alpha Freeze Policy", which redirects to the
"Alpha Milestone", that then says the "Branch Freeze Policy" has to be
followed. The schedule itself does not say anything about branching.
It would help a lot to avoid duplicating content in the wiki, because it
only leads to out-of-sync contents and makes it harder to update it.

Regards
Till

[0] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Important_Release_Milestones
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule

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Old 02-17-2010, 02:36 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 16:33 +0100, Till Maas wrote:
> Is the branch freeze a week late or is it now the same as the alpha
> freeze? In the "Important Release Milestones" wiki page[0], the branch
> was scheduled for 2010-02-09, but on the F13 Schedule[1], the "Alpha
> Freeze" links to the "Alpha Freeze Policy", which redirects to the
> "Alpha Milestone", that then says the "Branch Freeze Policy" has to be
> followed. The schedule itself does not say anything about branching.
> It would help a lot to avoid duplicating content in the wiki, because it
> only leads to out-of-sync contents and makes it harder to update it.

We are trying to track down the duplication and make canonical linkings.

The branch freeze happens at the branch event, which is a week after
Feature freeze. It's no longer an "Alpha Freeze" per se, because the
tree remains "frozen" even after alpha.

Originally we thought we'd branch at feature freeze, but then that would
mean we froze at feature freeze which was counter productive to moving
feature freeze a week earlier to allow last minute integration work to
happen unhindered.

Unfortunately we're going to have some rough times with documentation as
most of the documentation in the wiki isn't updated for how things work
with no frozen rawhide, but we're working on it. If you find more
places that need updating, please add them to
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/No_frozen_rawhide_announce_plan thanks!

--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom˛ is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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Old 02-17-2010, 02:40 PM
Till Maas
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 06:11:58AM -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:

> The branched repo config is the fedora.repo file. Mirrormanager will be
> making sure that goes to the right place. There is an updated

Is this http://mirrors.fedoraproject.org/publiclist/Fedora/ the url for
mirrormanager? I have to ask, because it does not contain any hint, that
it is. If it is, it seems not to know F13, because F13 is not on the
list.

Regards
Till

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Old 02-17-2010, 03:57 PM
Till Maas
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 07:36:00AM -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 16:33 +0100, Till Maas wrote:
> > Is the branch freeze a week late or is it now the same as the alpha
> > freeze? In the "Important Release Milestones" wiki page[0], the branch
> > was scheduled for 2010-02-09, but on the F13 Schedule[1], the "Alpha
> > Freeze" links to the "Alpha Freeze Policy", which redirects to the
> > "Alpha Milestone", that then says the "Branch Freeze Policy" has to be
> > followed. The schedule itself does not say anything about branching.
> > It would help a lot to avoid duplicating content in the wiki, because it
> > only leads to out-of-sync contents and makes it harder to update it.
>
> We are trying to track down the duplication and make canonical linkings.
>
> The branch freeze happens at the branch event, which is a week after
> Feature freeze. It's no longer an "Alpha Freeze" per se, because the
> tree remains "frozen" even after alpha.

So how is the package set determined that builds the Alpha release? Is
it everything which is pushed to F13 in Bodhi for 2010-02-24 at 20:00
UTC, which is the time of the GO/NOGO meeting? Or is the Alpha release
first composed and then it is decided, whether it will be synced to the
mirrors?

> Unfortunately we're going to have some rough times with documentation as
> most of the documentation in the wiki isn't updated for how things work
> with no frozen rawhide, but we're working on it. If you find more
> places that need updating, please add them to
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/No_frozen_rawhide_announce_plan thanks!

I added the differences between the F13 Schedule and the key milestones
there.

Regards
Till

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Old 02-17-2010, 04:08 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 17:57 +0100, Till Maas wrote:
>
> So how is the package set determined that builds the Alpha release? Is
> it everything which is pushed to F13 in Bodhi for 2010-02-24 at 20:00
> UTC, which is the time of the GO/NOGO meeting? Or is the Alpha release
> first composed and then it is decided, whether it will be synced to the
> mirrors?

It'll work a lot like how it worked before. The things which make it
through bodhi (instead of releng tag requests) and wind up in the
pub/fedora/linux/development/13/ directory the day of the compose
attempt. If it's broken, we'll push more things, if not, we'll ship the
Alpha.

>
> > Unfortunately we're going to have some rough times with documentation as
> > most of the documentation in the wiki isn't updated for how things work
> > with no frozen rawhide, but we're working on it. If you find more
> > places that need updating, please add them to
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/No_frozen_rawhide_announce_plan thanks!
>
> I added the differences between the F13 Schedule and the key milestones
> there.

Thanks, that's very helpful!

--
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:52 PM
Matt Domsch
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 04:40:33PM +0100, Till Maas wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 06:11:58AM -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
>
> > The branched repo config is the fedora.repo file. Mirrormanager will be
> > making sure that goes to the right place. There is an updated
>
> Is this http://mirrors.fedoraproject.org/publiclist/Fedora/ the url for
> mirrormanager? I have to ask, because it does not contain any hint, that
> it is. If it is, it seems not to know F13, because F13 is not on the
> list.

http://mirrors.fedoraproject.org/publiclist/Fedora/13/
shows 80 mirrors right now...

The F13 URL for use in yum is exactly the same as before, as long as
you have fedora-release-13 installed.

[fedora]
name=Fedora $releasever - $basearch
failovermethod=priority
#baseurl=http://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/$releasever/Everything/$basearch/os/
mirrorlist=https://mirrors.fedoraproject.org/metalink?repo=fedora-$releasever&arch=$basearch
enabled=1
metadata_expire=7d
gpgcheck=1
gpgkey=file:///etc/pki/rpm-gpg/RPM-GPG-KEY-fedora-$basearch

e.g.:

https://mirrors.fedoraproject.org/metalink?repo=fedora-13&arch=x86_64

but whoops - MM had fedora-13 repos directing to rawhide. I just
dropped that redirect, so after an hour or so it should direct to
development/13/ as expected.

Thanks,
Matt

--
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linux.dell.com & www.dell.com/linux
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:12 PM
Till Maas
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:52:57AM -0600, Matt Domsch wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 04:40:33PM +0100, Till Maas wrote:
> > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 06:11:58AM -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
> >
> > > The branched repo config is the fedora.repo file. Mirrormanager will be
> > > making sure that goes to the right place. There is an updated
> >
> > Is this http://mirrors.fedoraproject.org/publiclist/Fedora/ the url for
> > mirrormanager? I have to ask, because it does not contain any hint, that
> > it is. If it is, it seems not to know F13, because F13 is not on the
> > list.
>
> http://mirrors.fedoraproject.org/publiclist/Fedora/13/
> shows 80 mirrors right now...

When I wrote the mail, it did not appear in the "Mirror list filter"
list, but it does now.
Btw. I opened a ticket about mirrormanager not identifying itself in
trac:
https://fedorahosted.org/mirrormanager/ticket/25

Thanks
Till
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:21 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

Jesse Keating wrote:
> There is one small wrinkle. I've "broken" the dist-rawhide static repo,
> because I've made dist-rawhide a real build target to be used by builds
> from devel/. I'll be making a symlink soon that will keep
> "dist-rawhide" static repos pointed to the right location.

Why not use dist-f14?

Kevin Kofler

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Old 02-17-2010, 09:37 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

Christoph Wickert wrote:
> You are lucky. In the past people broke my package without further
> notice and I had to take care of fixing them. On the other hand there
> are maintainers, that announce changes in advance and ask me if I'm fine
> with them rebuilding my packages or if I want to take care of this
> myself. This is how it should be but only proven packagers will be able
> to do this.
>
> Take KDE for example: Although the KDE SIG is doing a great job in
> avoiding breakdowns, I doubt that each and every maintainer of a QT or
> KDE app is always aware of the changes before they happen. If things
> still seem to be working in F-13 or rawhide, he might not even be aware
> of the custom tag.

In KDE SIG, for releases, we normally identify packages needing a rebuild
ourselves and will just rebuild them and include them in our update set.
(The branched F13 will also work like that, though I don't think we'll need
to bump another KDE-related soname from now to the F13 release, we're
tracking the stable 4.4.x branch now, even stuff like the kipi framework in
kdegraphics with unstable ABI keeps it stable in release branches.) For
Rawhide, we'll also rebuild stuff if the maintainer doesn't do it by
himself, but usually we'll give the maintainer a chance to do it first.

We also announce the new versions and warn about the presence of buildroot
overrides in devel-announce, as well as on our own mailing list and IRC
chan. If people don't read even devel-announce, there's nothing we can do
about that, we aren't telepathic. ;-) It also helps to be on #fedora-kde on
IRC if you maintain KDE/Qt packages, but the important announcements go to
devel-announce as well.

> Honestly, I don't recall automated updates of my packages except for the
> mass rebuilds from rel-eng. If the people that break things and/or
> requested the custom tag will take care of this, we are fine, bug FWIW
> it's not like this in rawhide. Let's see how it turns out in F-13.

I'll do what I can to fix broken dependencies (as I did in the past; I fixed
all the remaining broken dependencies for the F12 release), but I hope I
won't be the only one! I can probably fix all broken dependencies alone if
there are at most a dozen, but not if there are a hundred!

> I think we still need to be able to treat F-13 different than in the
> released branches, at least before beta freeze. If we need to do things
> in rawhide first and only push these changes to F-13 afterwards, a
> feature with a tight schedule like Xfce 4.8 is lost. That's just what I
> said.

You can build the stuff in F13 right away, you'll just need rel-eng help
with buildroot overrides.

Kevin Kofler

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