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Old 02-17-2010, 01:07 PM
Till Maas
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 02:23:22PM +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:

> Both approaches have their ups and downs, but both slow down
> development:
> * Asking rel-eng for overwrites takes time.
> * Asking rel-eng for a tag takes some time too. And I'm afraid
> that with an inflationary number of tags things get unclear for
> other maintainers. They don't know what to build their packages
> against or when to use which tag. It requires a lot of
> coordination between the different parties.

Usually when some of mine packages need to be rebuild because of updated
dependencies, the communication is usually one-way. I get informed that
the packages needs to be rebuild and then it happens soon afterwards,
therefore I do not even have to know how the tag is called. There are
also scripts that help to do this easily afaik. This is also the
advantage of using a tag, because then I can still create bugfixes by
myself without being disturbed my the buildroots. Off course then the
package also needs to be rebuilt in the staging tag, but this can be
easily automated and already might be.

> So we both agree about the advantages of custom tags, but we are talking
> about the development versions here and not about stable releases. In
> the branches that are under development we would not do a bugfix against
> the "stable" tag. Instead, all updates are supposed to target
> development. If we really needed a bugfix in a development branch, this
> could easily be done with early branching.

I am confused here, since there is no early branching, because branching
already happened and F-13 is now stabilizing and afaik should be treated
more like it was stable than like it is rawhide. E.g. major updates
should now break rawhide first and if the fallout is handled, then it
could be done for F-13.

Regards
Till

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Old 02-17-2010, 01:11 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 08:26 +0000, Frank Murphy wrote:
>
> When will there be a "branched.repo" config for testers.
> So they won't be getting "rawhide.repo".
> It that's what they want
eed.

The branched repo config is the fedora.repo file. Mirrormanager will be
making sure that goes to the right place. There is an updated
fedora-release that will be published into the branched dir that testers
who want to stick with F13 can install. Those who start with Alpha will
stay on Fedora 13.

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Old 02-17-2010, 01:13 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 10:04 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> How do we address this issue?

The same way we address it for updates to a stable Fedora.

Release Engineering is an open group, if there are significant delays in
getting tagging done we can certainly try to get more taggers into the
group.

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Old 02-17-2010, 01:14 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 10:34 +0100, Michal Schmidt wrote:
> Would it help to use a special Koji tag for this?
> Let's say you'd get a tag 'dist-f13-xfce48' where all packages built
> there would be immediately available for building dependend packages.
> And then when you're done, you'd ask rel-eng to tag them all at once
> into 'dist-f13-updates-candidate'.

Yes, we can do a custom tag that self updates for update sets like this.
It just takes some coordination.

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Old 02-17-2010, 01:16 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 05:45 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Am I correct in assuming, wcorresponding mock setups for and yum
> mirrorlists reflecting this new setup will be in place in time when
> these repos go on-line?
>
>

yes. MirrorManager should already be working for these repos, I'll be
working on a mock update today.

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Old 02-17-2010, 01:28 PM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

Am Mittwoch, den 17.02.2010, 15:07 +0100 schrieb Till Maas:
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 02:23:22PM +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>
> > ...
>
> Usually when some of mine packages need to be rebuild because of updated
> dependencies, the communication is usually one-way. I get informed that
> the packages needs to be rebuild and then it happens soon afterwards,

You are lucky. In the past people broke my package without further
notice and I had to take care of fixing them. On the other hand there
are maintainers, that announce changes in advance and ask me if I'm fine
with them rebuilding my packages or if I want to take care of this
myself. This is how it should be but only proven packagers will be able
to do this.

Take KDE for example: Although the KDE SIG is doing a great job in
avoiding breakdowns, I doubt that each and every maintainer of a QT or
KDE app is always aware of the changes before they happen. If things
still seem to be working in F-13 or rawhide, he might not even be aware
of the custom tag.

> therefore I do not even have to know how the tag is called. There are
> also scripts that help to do this easily afaik. This is also the
> advantage of using a tag, because then I can still create bugfixes by
> myself without being disturbed my the buildroots. Off course then the
> package also needs to be rebuilt in the staging tag, but this can be
> easily automated and already might be.

Honestly, I don't recall automated updates of my packages except for the
mass rebuilds from rel-eng. If the people that break things and/or
requested the custom tag will take care of this, we are fine, bug FWIW
it's not like this in rawhide. Let's see how it turns out in F-13.

> I am confused here, since there is no early branching, because branching
> already happened

Right, now there no longer is early branching for selected packages onn
demand but a general early branches for all packages.

> and F-13 is now stabilizing and afaik should be treated
> more like it was stable than like it is rawhide. E.g. major updates
> should now break rawhide first and if the fallout is handled, then it
> could be done for F-13.

I think we still need to be able to treat F-13 different than in the
released branches, at least before beta freeze. If we need to do things
in rawhide first and only push these changes to F-13 afterwards, a
feature with a tight schedule like Xfce 4.8 is lost. That's just what I
said.

> Regards
> Till

Regards,
Christoph

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Old 02-17-2010, 01:45 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 15:28 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>
> Right, now there no longer is early branching for selected packages onn
> demand but a general early branches for all packages.

Except it's not really early. We're now in bugfix/polish mode for
Fedora 13, not in rapid development mode. Rapid development for Fedora
14 started now.

>
> > and F-13 is now stabilizing and afaik should be treated
> > more like it was stable than like it is rawhide. E.g. major updates
> > should now break rawhide first and if the fallout is handled, then it
> > could be done for F-13.
>
> I think we still need to be able to treat F-13 different than in the
> released branches, at least before beta freeze.

The beta milestone is when we're supposed to have all the bugs fixed,
not when we stop throwing in development builds.


> If we need to do things
> in rawhide first and only push these changes to F-13 afterwards, a
> feature with a tight schedule like Xfce 4.8 is lost. That's just what I
> said.
>

Of course you'll need to do things in a way that makes sense for your
schedule. It's encouraged that things hit rawhide first, but not
mandatory.

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Old 02-17-2010, 01:50 PM
Mathieu Bridon
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 15:11, Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 08:26 +0000, Frank Murphy wrote:
>>
>> When will there be a "branched.repo" config for testers.
>> So they won't be getting "rawhide.repo".
>> It that's what they want
eed.
>
> The branched repo config is the fedora.repo file. *Mirrormanager will be
> making sure that goes to the right place. *There is an updated
> fedora-release that will be published into the branched dir that testers
> who want to stick with F13 can install. *Those who start with Alpha will
> stay on Fedora 13.

I think Frank's question was:
In F12, I have a rawhide.repo I can use if I want to move to Rawhide.
What do I use if I want to move to F13?

At least, that's what I am wondering.


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Old 02-17-2010, 01:56 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 10:04 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:

> This means that large updates like Gnome, KDE or Xfce will get massively
> delayed after alpha. They might not make it into one of the prereleases,
> which means they get less testing. A lot of features will no longer be
> possible in their current state.
>
> How do we address this issue?

I don't use chain builds when updating gnome, so it can be done.
Please just complain for yourself...

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Old 02-17-2010, 02:09 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 has been branched!!

On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 15:50 +0100, Mathieu Bridon wrote:
> I think Frank's question was:
> In F12, I have a rawhide.repo I can use if I want to move to Rawhide.
> What do I use if I want to move to F13?
>
> At least, that's what I am wondering.

You'd install fedora-release from the branched repo, or you'd upgrade
using the Fedora 13 Alpha. We might even do pre-upgrade for getting
from a stable release to the branched release.

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