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Old 02-07-2010, 07:03 AM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default ABRT unusable again

On 02/07/2010 03:15 AM, Karel Klic wrote:
> Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Stefan Schulze Frielinghaus wrote:
>>> However, in the meantime I stopped reporting crashes via ABRT because I
>>> think it raises the load for a package maintainer to high while the
>>> report should go directly to upstream. Bothering the maintainer first
>>> instead of upstream is not the right thing to do.
>>
>> +1, in fact that's the biggest design failure in ABRT (in its current state)
>> and basically makes it useless. Gathering backtraces is something that needs
>> to be handled by upstream projects (like KDE does with KCrash/DrKonqi), not
>> distributions.

To end-users, it's irrelevant "who is supposed to fix something". Their
complaints are against the product call Fedora and thus expect "Fedora
to fix their product".

That said: It's irrelevant to Toyota car owners, which supplier
manufactured the parts which have caused Toyota to call back 1000 of
their cars - To them it's Toyota who is reponisible, and Toyota's duty
to fix this issue.

> Some maintainers fix crashes in their packages and then send the fixes
> to the upstream, and some don't. Some crashes are caused by
> distribution-specific environment, and some are not It's not clear
> whether we should report crashes directly to the upstream.

History tells, low quality automated bug reports to be ignored and to
cause a lot of bad blood. Debian for instance has an unfortunate history
in doing so - You're better off to learn from their historic mistakes!

> For some packages, reporting upstream could work well (Firefox,
> OpenOffice.org come to my mind).
You mean big, well-known projects with a fully-blown up infrastructure
and bureaucracy in place. It's naive to expect such an infrastructure to
be in place for all projects.

> However, many packages have
> unresponsive/dead upstream, upstream without issue tracker etc.
Read my previous sentence.

Also take into account that many upstreams will consider automated bug
reports, to be "simply SPAM", esp. when the find them to be of low
quality. If you're lucky, they will simply ignore them, if you're less
lucky, they will confront you with very harsh responses.


Finally: Why are we discussing this here?

This is all should have been part of ABRT's concepts, its upstream
should have considered and resolved before unleashing ABRT.
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Sun Feb 7 10:30:02 2010
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To: Matthew Moore <anonymous.jondoe@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: KMS, vga=791 and intel xorg driver
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This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format.

--------------ms060402030006030204000309
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Matthew Moore wrote:
> On Saturday February 6 2010 2:36:02 pm =CE=93=CE=B9=CF=8E=CF=81=CE=B3=CE=
=BF=CF=82 =CE=A0=CE=AC=CE=BB=CE=BB=CE=B1=CF=82 wrote:
> =20
>> So I removed vga=3D791 and problems with getting a console were resolv=
ed.
>>
>> In order to have a good resolution for my console while the pc is
>> booting, I used the
>> GRUB_GFXMODE=3D1440x900 directive in the grub2 config, but while it st=
arts
>> at this resolution, after the message 'Loading the initial image' (or
>> something like that), it reverts again to a very low analysis. How can=
I
>> fix that?
>> =20
>
> I think that you need to append "video=3Di915" to the linux command lin=
e, via=20
> the variable GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT in /etc/default/grub. This spec=
ifies=20
> the KMS driver for the kernel to use.=20
>
> When KMS gets loaded, it resets the console's scrollback buffer. Since =
the KMS=20
> driver gets loaded late in the boot process in Debian (later than in mo=
st=20
> other distro's), you won't be able to see any of your boot messages onc=
e your=20
> machine reaches login. Apparently this is going to be fixed in the futu=
re.
>
> MM
>
> =20

Thanks for your answers everybody!
So, I got it working by adding

video=3Di915:modeset=3D1

to the GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT in /etc/default/grub.

I also want to add that I don't see happening what Matthew wrote. I can s=
ee all the boot messages while the machine boots, and after the machine r=
eaches login prompt. Even now, from the X session, if I press CTRL-F1 I g=
et to the console where there are the boot messages, and at the bottom, t=
he login prompt.

Cheers,
Giorgos




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Old 02-07-2010, 09:20 AM
Stefan Schulze Frielinghaus
 
Default ABRT unusable again

On So, 2010-02-07 at 09:03 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 02/07/2010 03:15 AM, Karel Klic wrote:
> > Kevin Kofler wrote:
> >> Stefan Schulze Frielinghaus wrote:
> >>> However, in the meantime I stopped reporting crashes via ABRT because I
> >>> think it raises the load for a package maintainer to high while the
> >>> report should go directly to upstream. Bothering the maintainer first
> >>> instead of upstream is not the right thing to do.
> >>
> >> +1, in fact that's the biggest design failure in ABRT (in its current state)
> >> and basically makes it useless. Gathering backtraces is something that needs
> >> to be handled by upstream projects (like KDE does with KCrash/DrKonqi), not
> >> distributions.
>
> To end-users, it's irrelevant "who is supposed to fix something". Their
> complaints are against the product call Fedora and thus expect "Fedora
> to fix their product".
>
> That said: It's irrelevant to Toyota car owners, which supplier
> manufactured the parts which have caused Toyota to call back 1000 of
> their cars - To them it's Toyota who is reponisible, and Toyota's duty
> to fix this issue.

But Toyota's employees do not do that after work in their free time.
They get paid for it. If someone is paying me to fix bugs for upstream
that's fine and I will try to fix every reported bug. I guess a lot of
Fedora package maintainers do their packaging stuff in their spare free
time and would say it is not the right thing to offload the work to
them.

The analogy between Toyota and Fedora does not convince me ;-)

cheers,
Stefan

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Old 02-07-2010, 10:52 AM
Michael Schwendt
 
Default ABRT unusable again

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 11:20:04 +0100, Stefan wrote:

> On So, 2010-02-07 at 09:03 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> >
> > To end-users, it's irrelevant "who is supposed to fix something". Their
> > complaints are against the product call Fedora and thus expect "Fedora
> > to fix their product".
> >
> > That said: It's irrelevant to Toyota car owners, which supplier
> > manufactured the parts which have caused Toyota to call back 1000 of
> > their cars - To them it's Toyota who is reponisible, and Toyota's duty
> > to fix this issue.
>
> But Toyota's employees do not do that after work in their free time.
> They get paid for it. If someone is paying me to fix bugs for upstream
> that's fine and I will try to fix every reported bug. I guess a lot of
> Fedora package maintainers do their packaging stuff in their spare free
> time and would say it is not the right thing to offload the work to
> them.
>
> The analogy between Toyota and Fedora does not convince me ;-)

That's likely. Because the analogy isn't obvious - and reducing it to a
relationship between a paying customer and a paid worker makes it even
less obvious.

There is an analogy actually. Regardless of whether the Fedora Project
consists of many volunteers, who do unpaid stuff in their spare time,
Fedora delivers a product and will have to deal with its consumers and
negative feedback. The fact that the product is free (as in "free beer")
should not imply that it is worse than a commercial product. How far would
you want to go with regard to a fat disclaimer about "no warranties",
"free of charge", "no support", "hobbyist developers", to lower a
consumer's expectations? A huge sticker on top of the product to
advertise against trying it out? What is the added value we [at Fedora]
try to add? Surely it isn't that we just lump together software in form of
RPM packages _without_ testing and _without_ carefully picking releases
and compatible components. Even if we don't guarantee anything, there must
be something quality related, which _we_ _try_ to offer.

It's clear that if upstream software quality is poor and if nobody works
on improving the software, it is more difficult for the Fedora packager to
deliver quality. To shrug one's shoulders in reply to problem reports is
the wrong way, however. And the more problem reports, the more important
it gets to do something. As a last resort, software could get retired and
removed from "The Product".

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Old 02-07-2010, 12:16 PM
Jiri Moskovcak
 
Default ABRT unusable again

I don't want to answer all of the messages, so I'll try to sum all of it
in this one...


On 02/05/2010 09:46 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:

What's wrong with ABRT? ALl the backtraces I get are unusable again. If
Thunar crashes, not even Thunar-debuginfo gets installed.

abrt 1.0 worked here, then came 1.0.2 which was broken. 1.0.3 was
working again, but got superseded be 1.0.4 only a few of days later.
This means that most of the time, all the bugs submitted are basically
useless.



Unfortunately that's true, it was different problem every time, but the
result is the useless backtrace. This shouldn't happen anymore as we now
have more extensive testing before releasing a new version.



For me as the maintainer it is a lot of work to reply to all these
useless reports and for our users it's just frustrating if all their
reports get closed INSUFFICIENT_DATA.



If the current situation is really so bad, we can auto-close all of the
bugs reported by the broken versions of ABRT, because I guess they would
just sit there until bugzapping period.



If the situation doesn't change any time soon, we IMHO should consider
disabling abrt until the issues are fixed.



It's already fixed in 1.0.6, which sits in testing repo. In F12 there is
a pending kernel update which (if gets to F12 without change) will
prevent ABRT from detecting C/C++ apps crashes, so it will probably make
abrt silent for a while.



Now some answers for issues mentioned in this thread:

ABRT doesn't work by design:
- it actually does work, but it's bug detection/analyse is too general
for some apps, this is something we know about and it's not in our
powers to fix (it's not even considered a bug). This is actually the
reason why is ABRT extendible by plugins and every devel who maintains
some bigger app can write it's own abrt plugin to make the reports to
suit his needs. If devel doesn't want to get ABRT reports at all, he can
always send me an email and it can be added to ABRT blacklist.


I feel the Fedora community is being abused to evaluate a
semi-functional piece of SW's "yet uncooked" concepts:
- tha ABRT's concept is used for a while in other distros and ABRT
itself is in Fedora since F10, but nobody cared to take a look at it and
add some comments/ideas. I don't want to start a fight about
non-finished apps in Fedora, but I won't silently ignore it, I remeber
quite well the how finished and stable was the last major release of one
of the major desktop environment or I remember times when I had to use
web mail instead of my favourite client to write an email, because it
wasn't stable (and both were in stable Fedora release).



Nice idea. IMO it should only allow to submit reports after some sanity
checks:
- ABRT uses the code from Dr.Konqui to rate the backtrace and doesn't
allow user to send it if the rate is bellow 3 (the scale is 0-4), but
the bug in GUI let user to send even the bad BT.


I believe ABRT shouldn't file a bug report unless it is filled in
properly:

- we can change to GUI, so it won't let users fill a report without
providing a steps to reproduce


History tells, low quality automated bug reports to be ignored and to
cause a lot of bad blood. Debian for instance has an unfortunate history
in doing so - You're better off to learn from their historic mistake:
- times changes, Linux is now used by people who actually use it for
work not for the "fun of using Linux" and these people doesn't want to
spend time going thru bugzilla and filling some report. Yes, I agree we
should learn and in this we should learn from someone more desktop
oriented then Debian (maybe even from some non-Linux os??)


What needs to be fixed here is bugzilla not ABRT, we need a "report
upstream" button:
- the best would be to fix both. what we need to ease the life of
maintainers is a middle layer between ABRT (users) and
bugzilla(developers) something like mozilla
has(http://crash-stats.mozilla.com/).



Surely you're not suggesting holding up a decent kernel from going to
stable while waiting for Abrt ?
- there is no need to wait for ABRT when talking about the pending
kernel update update for F12, there is nothing what ABRT can do to work
with that kernel.



Anyway, there should be a tool in ABRT suite, that allows a package
maintainer to reconstruct a complete backtrace from an incomplete on,
using only the list of involved packages, with there evr(+arch):
- you can never get the whole BT without a coredump - you can get
recreating should be a matter of a simple script and we can provide it
as part of ABRT if devels would use it.



I hope I've cleared few things and will be happy to answer any of you
further questions and RFEs.


Jirka
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Old 02-07-2010, 12:23 PM
Stefan Schulze Frielinghaus
 
Default ABRT unusable again

On So, 2010-02-07 at 12:52 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
[...]
> There is an analogy actually. Regardless of whether the Fedora Project
> consists of many volunteers, who do unpaid stuff in their spare time,
> Fedora delivers a product and will have to deal with its consumers and
> negative feedback. The fact that the product is free (as in "free beer")
> should not imply that it is worse than a commercial product.

I completely agree and most open source software proofs that, but this
was not the question. The question was if the package maintainer should
be triggered first instead of upstream which increases the load for the
package maintainer who might not be able to handle all of these requests
in the end because it is not his/her full time job.

> It's clear that if upstream software quality is poor and if nobody works
> on improving the software, it is more difficult for the Fedora packager to
> deliver quality. To shrug one's shoulders in reply to problem reports is
> the wrong way, however. And the more problem reports, the more important
> it gets to do something. As a last resort, software could get retired and
> removed from "The Product".

This is at least a good point to me. ABRT might point out software which
needs more attention. If it is not possible to provide the needed power,
then the package should be removed to keep the expected stability of
Fedora.

cheers,
Stefan

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Old 02-07-2010, 01:34 PM
Michael Schwendt
 
Default ABRT unusable again

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:23:13 +0100, Stefan wrote:

> The question was if the package maintainer should
> be triggered first instead of upstream which increases the load for the
> package maintainer who might not be able to handle all of these requests
> in the end because it is not his/her full time job.

Well, that isn't straight-forward to answer IMO.

First of all, upstream may not be paid either for working on the software
_and_ on incoming problem reports. What sort of "support" and response
time can you expect from upstream in that case?

Secondly, the package maintainer should be informed about what is broken
with the chosen/packaged software release. Certainly you don't ask for
upstream to filter out *all* reports from all distributions, to return
distribution-specific ones into a dist's own bug tracking system, and to
work on incomplete backtraces or problems that aren't trivial to reproduce
in the absence of the original bug reporter. Depending on the software
quality it may be that upstream cannot handle all that either.

Fedora packages are not fire'n'forget releases. Even if you forwarded
every bugzilla ticket to upstream, you would still need to monitor the
status of the forwarded reports or fix issues yourself, provided that they
matter to you. Whether they should matter to you also depends on project
strategies and goals and whether Fedora wants to deliver added value. In
some cases, the product (or individual packages) may suffer from
insufficient contributor resources, and a single package maintainer
may not be enough.

> ABRT might point out software which
> needs more attention.

That is not its task. Bugzilla statistical queries could examine packages
for a high number of open/unresponded tickets, a growing number of
tickets closed by the bugzapper scripts at dist EOL, a low update
frequency, and a package owner who isn't responsive for other packages
either.


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Old 02-07-2010, 03:55 PM
Stefan Schulze Frielinghaus
 
Default ABRT unusable again

On So, 2010-02-07 at 15:34 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:23:13 +0100, Stefan wrote:
>
> > The question was if the package maintainer should
> > be triggered first instead of upstream which increases the load for the
> > package maintainer who might not be able to handle all of these requests
> > in the end because it is not his/her full time job.
>
> Well, that isn't straight-forward to answer IMO.
>
> First of all, upstream may not be paid either for working on the software
> _and_ on incoming problem reports. What sort of "support" and response
> time can you expect from upstream in that case?
>
> Secondly, the package maintainer should be informed about what is broken
> with the chosen/packaged software release. Certainly you don't ask for
> upstream to filter out *all* reports from all distributions, to return
> distribution-specific ones into a dist's own bug tracking system, and to
> work on incomplete backtraces or problems that aren't trivial to reproduce
> in the absence of the original bug reporter. Depending on the software
> quality it may be that upstream cannot handle all that either.
>
> Fedora packages are not fire'n'forget releases. Even if you forwarded
> every bugzilla ticket to upstream, you would still need to monitor the
> status of the forwarded reports or fix issues yourself, provided that they
> matter to you. Whether they should matter to you also depends on project
> strategies and goals and whether Fedora wants to deliver added value. In
> some cases, the product (or individual packages) may suffer from
> insufficient contributor resources, and a single package maintainer
> may not be enough.

Hmm yeah. I see the problem. It would even get worse when e.g. some
patches are applied to the package, then upstream couldn't even debug
properly.

Nasty situation ;-) I will think about it. Hopefully it was not too off
topic.

Thanks for letting me know,
Stefan

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Old 02-07-2010, 05:46 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default ABRT unusable again

Michael Schwendt wrote:
> Secondly, the package maintainer should be informed about what is broken
> with the chosen/packaged software release. Certainly you don't ask for
> upstream to filter out *all* reports from all distributions, to return
> distribution-specific ones into a dist's own bug tracking system,

Most problems are not distribution-specific. For the ones which are, they
can close the bugs as DOWNSTREAM, NOTOURBUG or whatever their Bugzilla uses
for that case and tell the user to report them to the distribution. It's
less work for them do to that for the few bugs which happen to be
distribution-specific than for us to do the opposite for the common case.

> and to work on incomplete backtraces or problems that aren't trivial to
> reproduce in the absence of the original bug reporter.

That's why bugs should not be forwarded by us, but filed directly upstream.

> Fedora packages are not fire'n'forget releases.

Once upstream fixes the issue (which will result in bugmail to the
reporter), it's OK to file a bug to us asking us to backport the fix. But if
the package is maintained properly (like e.g. KDE), the next release with
the fix will be pushed soon anyway.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 02-07-2010, 05:49 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default ABRT unusable again

Michael Schwendt wrote:
> As a last resort, software could get retired and removed from "The
> Product".

I'm not sure not shipping something at all is better for the user than
shipping it with bugs, even if they never get fixed. Often even a buggy
software is better than nothing.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 02-07-2010, 08:26 PM
Karel Klic
 
Default ABRT unusable again

Karel Klic wrote:
> Christoph Wickert wrote:
>> For me as the maintainer it is a lot of work to reply to all these
>> useless reports and for our users it's just frustrating if all their
>> reports get closed INSUFFICIENT_DATA.
>
> I am now going to write a script which detects all the backtraces
> without debuginfo in Bugzilla, and closes the bugs as INSUFFICIENT_DATA
> with an apology. I do not know how many of them are in Bugzilla, but
> those can be detected and closed automatically (more info soon, it
> should be hacked together quickly).

The script to find backtraces without debuginfo has been written[1]. I
placed the list of found bugs to the Fedora wiki [2]. IMHO only bugs
with 2 comments should be closed, because 2 comments mean that the
package maintainer did not touch the bug (ABRT adds 2 comments to every
bug it creates). We can close 129 bugs this way.

> Also a script [1] which finds all the duplicate backtraces (we can find)
> in Bugzilla has been written. Those duplicates were made by older ABRT
> versions without good duplicate detection. ~900 bugs can be closed with
> this script. Hopefully it removes some burden from package maintainers.
>
> [1] https://fedorahosted.org/abrt/browser/src/Backtrace/abrt-bz-dupchecker
Its 551 bugs that can be closed as duplicates, not 900. I placed the
list of affected bugs to the Fedora wiki [3].

So I'd like to close over 600 bugs in Bugzilla using scripts. Is there
some Fedora policy regulating this?

[1] https://fedorahosted.org/abrt/browser/scripts/abrt-bz-ratingfixer
[2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kklic/ABRT_Incomplete_Backtraces
[3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kklic/ABRT_Duplicates

Best Regards,
Karel
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