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Old 02-05-2010, 07:46 PM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default ABRT unusable again

What's wrong with ABRT? ALl the backtraces I get are unusable again. If
Thunar crashes, not even Thunar-debuginfo gets installed.

abrt 1.0 worked here, then came 1.0.2 which was broken. 1.0.3 was
working again, but got superseded be 1.0.4 only a few of days later.
This means that most of the time, all the bugs submitted are basically
useless.

For me as the maintainer it is a lot of work to reply to all these
useless reports and for our users it's just frustrating if all their
reports get closed INSUFFICIENT_DATA.

If the situation doesn't change any time soon, we IMHO should consider
disabling abrt until the issues are fixed.

Regards,
Christoph



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Old 02-06-2010, 03:27 AM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default ABRT unusable again

On 02/05/2010 09:46 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:

> If the situation doesn't change any time soon, we IMHO should consider
> disabling abrt until the issues are fixed.
Agreed.

However, I went one step further: I removed ABRT from my systems, not
because of issues I would have with it as a Fedora package maintainer,
but because of usability issues I am having with it on the user-side and
because of other issues I am having with it as sys-admin.

Worse, in this case, I feel the Fedora community is being abused to
evaluate a semi-functional piece of SW's "yet uncooked" concepts.

Ralf

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Old 02-06-2010, 08:51 AM
Michael Schwendt
 
Default ABRT unusable again

On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:46:54 +0100, Christoph wrote:

> What's wrong with ABRT? ALl the backtraces I get are unusable again. If
> Thunar crashes, not even Thunar-debuginfo gets installed.
>
> abrt 1.0 worked here, then came 1.0.2 which was broken. 1.0.3 was
> working again, but got superseded be 1.0.4 only a few of days later.
> This means that most of the time, all the bugs submitted are basically
> useless.
>
> For me as the maintainer it is a lot of work to reply to all these
> useless reports and for our users it's just frustrating if all their
> reports get closed INSUFFICIENT_DATA.
>
> If the situation doesn't change any time soon, we IMHO should consider
> disabling abrt until the issues are fixed.

Which kernel release?
Perhaps related to this sweet little "war" about ABRT:
http://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F12/FEDORA-2010-1237
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Old 02-06-2010, 09:23 AM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default ABRT unusable again

Am Samstag, den 06.02.2010, 10:51 +0100 schrieb Michael Schwendt:
> On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:46:54 +0100, Christoph wrote:
>
> > What's wrong with ABRT? ALl the backtraces I get are unusable again. If
> > Thunar crashes, not even Thunar-debuginfo gets installed.
>
> Which kernel release?
> Perhaps related to this sweet little "war" about ABRT:
> http://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F12/FEDORA-2010-1237

I am still using 2.6.31.12-174.2.3.fc12 and so do the submitters of the
bug reports.

Regards,
Christoph

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Old 02-06-2010, 09:53 AM
Leigh Scott
 
Default ABRT unusable again

IMO ABRT isn't that useful as a lot of the reports don't include steps
to reproduce (I just close the bugs after a month if they don't respond
to the "needinfo" request).
I believe ABRT shouldn't file a bug report unless it is filled in
properly.

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Old 02-06-2010, 10:23 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default ABRT unusable again

Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> However, I went one step further: I removed ABRT from my systems, not
> because of issues I would have with it as a Fedora package maintainer,
> but because of usability issues I am having with it on the user-side and
> because of other issues I am having with it as sys-admin.
>
> Worse, in this case, I feel the Fedora community is being abused to
> evaluate a semi-functional piece of SW's "yet uncooked" concepts.

+1. ABRT is just broken in so many ways it's not even funny and should never
have been shipped in its current state.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 02-06-2010, 12:08 PM
Michael Schwendt
 
Default ABRT unusable again

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:53:14 +0000, Leigh wrote:

> IMO ABRT isn't that useful as a lot of the reports don't include steps
> to reproduce (I just close the bugs after a month if they don't respond
> to the "needinfo" request).
> I believe ABRT shouldn't file a bug report unless it is filled in
> properly.

Yeah, some of us have pointed out that before.

I'm happy about every detailed backtrace I get, but I would be even more
happy if users contributed a tiny bit more and added comments to their
tickets and responded to NEEDINFO queries and gave feedback on Test
Updates. ABRT has lowered the hurdle so much that people dump generated
reports into bugzilla but otherwise they appear like /dev/null and only
show rarely that they care about a package.
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Old 02-06-2010, 01:53 PM
Stefan Schulze Frielinghaus
 
Default ABRT unusable again

On Sa, 2010-02-06 at 14:08 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
[...]
> I'm happy about every detailed backtrace I get, but I would be even more
> happy if users contributed a tiny bit more and added comments to their
> tickets and responded to NEEDINFO queries and gave feedback on Test
> Updates. ABRT has lowered the hurdle so much that people dump generated
> reports into bugzilla but otherwise they appear like /dev/null and only
> show rarely that they care about a package.

On the one hand I agree with you on the other hand I see it from an
users point of view and feel a bit in a pickle. For example, every
second login gnome-panel crashes, removes Gnote from the panel and ABRT
shows me a core dump. I cannot reproduce this problem except from a
logout and login. So I cannot provide a detailed description what was
going on and how to reproduce it (except as I already said: logout and
login). But since it crashes that frequently I decided to report it
anyway just in the hope that the package maintainer sees from the
backtrace what is going wrong. Maybe this is not the best thing to do
but after a couple of weeks seeing the red flash light several times a
day you go crazy ;-)

However, in the meantime I stopped reporting crashes via ABRT because I
think it raises the load for a package maintainer to high while the
report should go directly to upstream. Bothering the maintainer first
instead of upstream is not the right thing to do.

Just my experience.

cheers,
Stefan

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Old 02-06-2010, 02:22 PM
Till Maas
 
Default ABRT unusable again

On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 12:23:31PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > However, I went one step further: I removed ABRT from my systems, not
> > because of issues I would have with it as a Fedora package maintainer,
> > but because of usability issues I am having with it on the user-side and
> > because of other issues I am having with it as sys-admin.
> >
> > Worse, in this case, I feel the Fedora community is being abused to
> > evaluate a semi-functional piece of SW's "yet uncooked" concepts.
>
> +1. ABRT is just broken in so many ways it's not even funny and should never
> have been shipped in its current state.

For yum related python backtrace bugs, it worked pretty well here and
made bug reporting a lot easier. So maybe it should only be activated
for cases where additional debuginfo is not needed.

Regards
Till
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Old 02-06-2010, 04:03 PM
Karel Klic
 
Default ABRT unusable again

Christoph Wickert wrote:
> What's wrong with ABRT? ALl the backtraces I get are unusable again. If
> Thunar crashes, not even Thunar-debuginfo gets installed.

There is a flaw in ABRT 1.0.4, which allows to submit incomplete
backtraces. It got into the source code during the GUI rewrite.

There is abrt-1.0.6 in Fedora 12 testing repository, which contains a
fix for this issue.

> abrt 1.0 worked here, then came 1.0.2 which was broken. 1.0.3 was
> working again, but got superseded be 1.0.4 only a few of days later.
> This means that most of the time, all the bugs submitted are basically
> useless.

It became better with later releases, but the bug you described made it
bad again (for this release).

As far as I can tell, the last large-scale change (the new GUI) was
finished in 1.0.4. It introduced some bugs, but those are fixed now.
A lot of people complained about the old GUI, so it seemed to us (the
ABRT team) that the GUI overhaul was mandatory. Well, some people
complain about the current GUI, but IMHO its better.

The latest version (1.0.6) contains mostly bug fixes, so it should not
break things, it should make ABRT reports sane again.

> For me as the maintainer it is a lot of work to reply to all these
> useless reports and for our users it's just frustrating if all their
> reports get closed INSUFFICIENT_DATA.

IMHO it's not so frustrating for users, as it is frustrating for some
maintainers. Users want to help by reporting crashes, but it doesn't
make you sad when the crash you just reported was not useful at the end
(you invested a few clicks in reporting that crash).

ABRT hurt some maintainers in Fedora 12. I believe the following Fedora
releases will benefit from ABRT, as the crashes in the bleeding edge
software introduced in every release will be quickly detected and fixed.

I am now going to write a script which detects all the backtraces
without debuginfo in Bugzilla, and closes the bugs as INSUFFICIENT_DATA
with an apology. I do not know how many of them are in Bugzilla, but
those can be detected and closed automatically (more info soon, it
should be hacked together quickly).

> If the situation doesn't change any time soon, we IMHO should consider
> disabling abrt until the issues are fixed.

Please consider testing and adding +1 karma to ABRT 1.0.6 in Bodhi.

Also a script [1] which finds all the duplicate backtraces (we can find)
in Bugzilla has been written. Those duplicates were made by older ABRT
versions without good duplicate detection. ~900 bugs can be closed with
this script. Hopefully it removes some burden from package maintainers.

[1] https://fedorahosted.org/abrt/browser/src/Backtrace/abrt-bz-dupchecker

Best Regards,
Karel
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