Am 2009-12-17 10:36, schrieb Otto Haliburton:




-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-devel-list-bounces@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list-
bounces@redhat.com] On Behalf Of nodata
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 01:01
To: Development discussions related to Fedora
Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot...

Am 2009-12-17 00:08, schrieb Jeff Spaleta:

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Gregory Maxwell<gmaxwell@gmail.com>

wrote:

Yes- users with more expertise are more likely to complain about this,
but thats not reason to dismiss the issue. If there were truly a
disconnect here betweens the needs of the novices and those of the
expert users you could argue favouring the novices, but that just
isn't applicable here.


Uhm. am I missing something. Aren't we talking about reboot requests
that PK is spawning and I can choose to cancel in the UI interaction
because I know better instead of mandatory reboots?

-jef



No, we're talking about requiring fewer reboots for normal users.

Prompting a user like this teaches them to ignore recommendations. This
isn't a good thing.


there are no mandatory reboots in PackageKit, you are notified what packages
will cause a request to reboot and you can exit the process without
rebooting!!!!!! Or you can remove the packages from the update processes
and install when convenient for you.


yep. but all of that assumes I know what I am doing, and the people that
this is aimed at don't. windows requires fewer reboots now.


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On 12/17/2009 01:50 PM, nodata wrote:


yep. but all of that assumes I know what I am doing, and the people that
this is aimed at don't. windows requires fewer reboots now.


+1, and remember that they have an advantage right off the bat:

- much fewer subsystems (Windows and a couple of tiny apps, vs. Linux's
entire universe of applications)


- patch model that pushes large patch sets at long intervals rather than
frequent fine-grained patches.


I think Linux has to have a better heuristic as to when a reboot is
necessary. Actually, any event that breaks the user's work flow is as
bad: X crash/logoff is as disruptive as a reboot, unless we had a way to
restore the application state in the way Firefox or Emacs or OpenOffice
recover from crashes (restarting, opening the windows where they were
and recovering the content).


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: fedora-devel-list-bounces@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list-
> bounces@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Przemek Klosowski
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 13:05
> To: fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
>
> On 12/17/2009 01:50 PM, nodata wrote:
>
> > yep. but all of that assumes I know what I am doing, and the people that
> > this is aimed at don't. windows requires fewer reboots now.
>
> +1, and remember that they have an advantage right off the bat:
>
> - much fewer subsystems (Windows and a couple of tiny apps, vs. Linux's
> entire universe of applications)
>
> - patch model that pushes large patch sets at long intervals rather than
> frequent fine-grained patches.
>
> I think Linux has to have a better heuristic as to when a reboot is
> necessary. Actually, any event that breaks the user's work flow is as
> bad: X crash/logoff is as disruptive as a reboot, unless we had a way to
> restore the application state in the way Firefox or Emacs or OpenOffice
> recover from crashes (restarting, opening the windows where they were
> and recovering the content).
>
I am now getting a picture of why this subject is so hard to grasp, everyone
who is for fewer reboots address the issue on a task by task bases, while
those who support reboots think of it on a system bases. Windows now
restarts each time a patch occurs, at the current time I can't think of any
patch in the last 3 months which hasn't required a reboot. Another reason is
that some of the windows operating systems are coming to their end of life
cycle, and windows is choosing to do a lot of patches in one update, but
believe me, it is startling to come in the next morning to see your computer
restarted with a message that a update was performed and you were restarted
and that occurs with all of the windows operating systems that are currently
supported. Linux has many applications that are running and on each update
you can have as many as many as 65(the last update) task being updated each
week and how you will avoid reboots will be amazing to me. I think then
people will complain that it takes 6 hours to update now and it use to take
30 minutes. At the present time you have apps that run across logoff and
login, so trying to get into starting and stopping task in update situations
will be a nightmare, but if there are some ambitious people out there go at
it, there are only 5000 apps that need to be updated to solve the problem.
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On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 12:05:15PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:51 AM, James Antill <james@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> >
> > *How do you plan on restarting firefox? Or you just planning to kill()
> > and get the user to restart?
>
> Trying to send a close button event to the app's windows is probably
> our best short-term approach;

That would fail pretty badly in the case of Firefox with multiple
windows open. Firefox's session support can restore multiple tabs to
multiple windows if you quit it and restart, but if you have two windows
open, close one, then close the second causing the browser to quit, then
on restart the session that is restored will only contain the tabs from
the second window. The logic goes that the first window was no longer
part of the session when the app quit. Simply killing the process is
actually less disruptive.

Ewan
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On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Ewan Mac Mahon <ewan@macmahon.me.uk> wrote:
>
> That would fail pretty badly in the case of Firefox with multiple
> windows open.

True; there's nothing stopping us from adding something
Firefox-specific as a short term measure, since how it does session
saving is fairly unique right now (ideally we add a nice API for this
to GTK+ which then has to be mirrored in XUL). Killing the process
though has the downside of triggering the "Well, that was
embarassing..." which is arguably a Firefox bug though.

Anyways, "the perfect is the enemy of the good", etc.

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Am 2009-12-17 15:02, schrieb Otto Haliburton:




-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-devel-list-bounces@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list-
bounces@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Eelko Berkenpies
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 05:09
To: Development discussions related to Fedora
Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot...

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Otto Haliburton
<ottohaliburton@tx.rr.com> wrote:


----- Original Message ----- From: "nodata"<lsof@nodata.co.uk>
To: "Development discussions related to Fedora"
<fedora-devel-list@redhat.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot...



Am 2009-12-16 18:21, schrieb Seth Vidal:



On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote:



we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing
what
does and does not need a reboot.

All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced
user can do what they want.

-sv



True, but the default should be sensible.


And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user:

Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps individually,
tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it
comes back.

-sv



On the other hand I think requiring more reboots than Windows is a bad
thing...


windows update will automatically reboot your system when it

automatically

updates it
windows tried the optional stuff but now almost every case it requires a
restart.


I don't like the term "experienced user" and I never feel comfortable
adding myself to that group but anyway,

- I don't want Windows to automatically reboot so I disable the
automatic Windows Update on the machines I'm using.

- I don't want my Fedora to reboot automatically so I disable and
remove PackageKit on the machines I'm using.

There isn't that much I could say about the times Fedora ask for a
reboot but at least I think it's kind of "unfair" to compare it with
an OS which pushes their updates just once a month.

Just my € 0.02.

first of all PackageKit does not do mandatory reboots. If you hadn't
disabled it you would know that. In fact the people that are complaining
don't seem to have any idea why reboots are necessary. You need to get a
grip on file processing, cache, and other processes that speeds up execution
then you will know why it is not trivial. i.e. you kill a task that is in
the process of writing data to a file after you update it. What happens????


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With kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet,

Eelko Berkenpies
http://blog.berkenpies.nl/

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I wish mailing list discussions were point-for-point for-and-against. It
would be so much easier.


Here is my point: Windows requires a reboot less often than Linux. Argue
all you want, it's true.


Linux has quicker security updates than Linux. That's an advantage.

ksplice can patch a running kernel...

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: fedora-devel-list-bounces@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list-
> bounces@redhat.com] On Behalf Of nodata
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 15:09
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
>
> Am 2009-12-17 15:02, schrieb Otto Haliburton:
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: fedora-devel-list-bounces@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list-
> >> bounces@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Eelko Berkenpies
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 05:09
> >> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> >> Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Otto Haliburton
> >> <ottohaliburton@tx.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "nodata"<lsof@nodata.co.uk>
> >>> To: "Development discussions related to Fedora"
> >>> <fedora-devel-list@redhat.com>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:29 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Am 2009-12-16 18:21, schrieb Seth Vidal:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable
> knowing
> >>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>> does and does not need a reboot.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the
> experienced
> >>>>>>> user can do what they want.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -sv
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> True, but the default should be sensible.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps
> individually,
> >>>>> tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it
> >>>>> comes back.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -sv
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On the other hand I think requiring more reboots than Windows is a
> bad
> >>>> thing...
> >>>>
> >>> windows update will automatically reboot your system when it
> >> automatically
> >>> updates it
> >>> windows tried the optional stuff but now almost every case it requires
> a
> >>> restart.
> >>
> >> I don't like the term "experienced user" and I never feel comfortable
> >> adding myself to that group but anyway,
> >>
> >> - I don't want Windows to automatically reboot so I disable the
> >> automatic Windows Update on the machines I'm using.
> >>
> >> - I don't want my Fedora to reboot automatically so I disable and
> >> remove PackageKit on the machines I'm using.
> >>
> >> There isn't that much I could say about the times Fedora ask for a
> >> reboot but at least I think it's kind of "unfair" to compare it with
> >> an OS which pushes their updates just once a month.
> >>
> >> Just my € 0.02.
> > first of all PackageKit does not do mandatory reboots. If you hadn't
> > disabled it you would know that. In fact the people that are
> complaining
> > don't seem to have any idea why reboots are necessary. You need to get
> a
> > grip on file processing, cache, and other processes that speeds up
> execution
> > then you will know why it is not trivial. i.e. you kill a task that is
> in
> > the process of writing data to a file after you update it. What
> happens????
> >>
> >> --
> >> With kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet,
> >>
> >> Eelko Berkenpies
> >> http://blog.berkenpies.nl/
> >>
> >> --
> >> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> >> fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
> >
> >
>
> I wish mailing list discussions were point-for-point for-and-against. It
> would be so much easier.
>
> Here is my point: Windows requires a reboot less often than Linux. Argue
> all you want, it's true.
I have three computers running windows XP Windows Vista and Windows Vista
Premium 24 hours per day, I have 2 computers dedicated to Linux so I know
what I am talking about. Windows is a commercial system, it gets paid for
what it produces and so it would be nice for them to boot less, but now they
reboot on every update and that is once a week generally on Tuesday.

>
> Linux has quicker security updates than Linux. That's an advantage.
>
> ksplice can patch a running kernel...

If you really want that then you can design and use it yourself. I don't
believe that anyone wants to patch a running Kernel especially without
testing and not be able to recover the old kernel. Are you really thinking
and considering the reasons for a reboot, #1 is simplicity!!!
>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: fedora-devel-list-bounces@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list-
> bounces@redhat.com] On Behalf Of nodata
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 15:09
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
>
> Am 2009-12-17 15:02, schrieb Otto Haliburton:
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: fedora-devel-list-bounces@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list-
> >> bounces@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Eelko Berkenpies
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 05:09
> >> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> >> Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Otto Haliburton
> >> <ottohaliburton@tx.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "nodata"<lsof@nodata.co.uk>
> >>> To: "Development discussions related to Fedora"
> >>> <fedora-devel-list@redhat.com>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:29 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Am 2009-12-16 18:21, schrieb Seth Vidal:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable
> knowing
> >>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>> does and does not need a reboot.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the
> experienced
> >>>>>>> user can do what they want.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -sv
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> True, but the default should be sensible.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps
> individually,
> >>>>> tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it
> >>>>> comes back.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -sv
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On the other hand I think requiring more reboots than Windows is a
> bad
> >>>> thing...
> >>>>
> >>> windows update will automatically reboot your system when it
> >> automatically
> >>> updates it
> >>> windows tried the optional stuff but now almost every case it requires
> a
> >>> restart.
> >>
> >> I don't like the term "experienced user" and I never feel comfortable
> >> adding myself to that group but anyway,
> >>
> >> - I don't want Windows to automatically reboot so I disable the
> >> automatic Windows Update on the machines I'm using.
> >>
> >> - I don't want my Fedora to reboot automatically so I disable and
> >> remove PackageKit on the machines I'm using.
> >>
> >> There isn't that much I could say about the times Fedora ask for a
> >> reboot but at least I think it's kind of "unfair" to compare it with
> >> an OS which pushes their updates just once a month.
> >>
> >> Just my € 0.02.
> > first of all PackageKit does not do mandatory reboots. If you hadn't
> > disabled it you would know that. In fact the people that are
> complaining
> > don't seem to have any idea why reboots are necessary. You need to get
> a
> > grip on file processing, cache, and other processes that speeds up
> execution
> > then you will know why it is not trivial. i.e. you kill a task that is
> in
> > the process of writing data to a file after you update it. What
> happens????
> >>
> >> --
> >> With kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet,
> >>
> >> Eelko Berkenpies
> >> http://blog.berkenpies.nl/
> >>
> >> --
> >> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> >> fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
> >
> >
>
> I wish mailing list discussions were point-for-point for-and-against. It
> would be so much easier.
>
> Here is my point: Windows requires a reboot less often than Linux. Argue
> all you want, it's true.
>
> Linux has quicker security updates than Linux. That's an advantage.
>
> ksplice can patch a running kernel...
LOL, you have to be joking with all the stuff that blows up around here you
would trust someone patch you kernel while it was running and especially if
like me you run a custom built kernel. I applaud your trust and guts if you
will stand for that.
>
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On Thu, 2009-12-17 at 22:08 +0100, nodata wrote:

> Here is my point: Windows requires a reboot less often than Linux. Argue
> all you want, it's true.

It's entirely false, because Linux *never* requires a reboot. Fedora
(not Linux, you are generalizing too far) *advises* reboots, it never
requires them. Windows forces you to reboot - literally, you cannot
prevent it from rebooting when it decides you have to.
--
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IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
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Otto Haliburton wrote:

Windows now

restarts each time a patch occurs, at the current time I can't think of any
patch in the last 3 months which hasn't required a reboot. Another reason is
that some of the windows operating systems are coming to their end of life
cycle, and windows is choosing to do a lot of patches in one update, but
believe me, it is startling to come in the next morning to see your computer
restarted with a message that a update was performed and you were restarted
and that occurs with all of the windows operating systems that are currently
supported.
Please be consistent. Windows also doesn't *have* to auto restart. My
systems are set to manual update of predownloaded files. Besides, since
my systems are dual (or more) boot, they wouldn't auto reboot into the
running version of windows. Would be very annoying.


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