On 12/16/2009 03:51 AM, Richard Hughes wrote:
> 2009/12/16 Mail Lists <lists@sapience.com>:
>> The last part is a clean up phase which could be deferred to reboot
>> or perhaps something a little more clever.
>
> The devil is in the detail
>
> Richard.
>

Yes but how are:


(a) Kill app - install - restart

(b) install in separate are - on reboot
(app is now dead, flip link to new install - delete old)


Any different?

We have ways now of running things as the system is going down or
coming up ... don't we ?

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On 12/16/2009 06:34 PM, Seth Vidal wrote:



On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote:


Am 2009-12-16 18:21, schrieb Seth Vidal:



On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote:



we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing
what
does and does not need a reboot.

All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced
user can do what they want.

-sv



True, but the default should be sensible.


And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user:

Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps individually,
tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it
comes back.

-sv



On the other hand I think requiring more reboots than Windows is a bad
thing...


Then I can think of a couple of solutions to this problem:

1. Have fewer update pushes per release - this is something I'm actively
advocating and I think is possible

Depends on what you actually have in mind.

Simply letting update pile up would seem a silly idea to me, it
contradicts Fedora's goal and removes what makes Fedora "attractive".


Letting pile up "updates, which require a reboot, but are not addressig
real bugs", could be applicable.



2. Match up more updates to a specific running app so we can see if the
reboot is really necessary at all. - something else I've wrriten some
code in support of.

Yes, this would be helpful - But only in case of non-bugfix updates.

Bug-fix updates should be pushed ASAP, IMO.

3. Having better tools to avoid reboots.
(Consider daemons, servers).

4. Maintainers to be more careful/reluctant/conservative, when
considering to update packages, which require a reboot.


Ralf

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Am 2009-12-17 00:08, schrieb Jeff Spaleta:

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Gregory Maxwell<gmaxwell@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes— users with more expertise are more likely to complain about this,
but thats not reason to dismiss the issue. If there were truly a
disconnect here betweens the needs of the novices and those of the
expert users you could argue favouring the novices, but that just
isn't applicable here.


Uhm. am I missing something. Aren't we talking about reboot requests
that PK is spawning and I can choose to cancel in the UI interaction
because I know better instead of mandatory reboots?

-jef



No, we're talking about requiring fewer reboots for normal users.

Prompting a user like this teaches them to ignore recommendations. This
isn't a good thing.


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: fedora-devel-list-bounces@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list-
> bounces@redhat.com] On Behalf Of nodata
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 01:01
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
>
> Am 2009-12-17 00:08, schrieb Jeff Spaleta:
> > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Gregory Maxwell<gmaxwell@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Yes- users with more expertise are more likely to complain about this,
> >> but thats not reason to dismiss the issue. If there were truly a
> >> disconnect here betweens the needs of the novices and those of the
> >> expert users you could argue favouring the novices, but that just
> >> isn't applicable here.
> >
> > Uhm. am I missing something. Aren't we talking about reboot requests
> > that PK is spawning and I can choose to cancel in the UI interaction
> > because I know better instead of mandatory reboots?
> >
> > -jef
> >
>
> No, we're talking about requiring fewer reboots for normal users.
>
> Prompting a user like this teaches them to ignore recommendations. This
> isn't a good thing.
>
there are no mandatory reboots in PackageKit, you are notified what packages
will cause a request to reboot and you can exit the process without
rebooting!!!!!! Or you can remove the packages from the update processes
and install when convenient for you.
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2009/12/16 Nathanael D. Noblet <nathanael@gnat.ca>:
> So basically, PK is designed for the non-experienced users, as such
> everything it does is dumbed down, and experienced users should just ignore
> it, using other tools to keep their system up to date.

See http://www.packagekit.org/pk-profiles.html

Richard.

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On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Otto Haliburton
<ottohaliburton@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "nodata" <lsof@nodata.co.uk>
> To: "Development discussions related to Fedora"
> <fedora-devel-list@redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:29 AM
> Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
>
>
>> Am 2009-12-16 18:21, schrieb Seth Vidal:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing
>>>>> what
>>>>> does and does not need a reboot.
>>>>>
>>>>> All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced
>>>>> user can do what they want.
>>>>>
>>>>> -sv
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> True, but the default should be sensible.
>>>
>>> And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user:
>>>
>>> Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps individually,
>>> tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it
>>> comes back.
>>>
>>> -sv
>>>
>>
>> On the other hand I think requiring more reboots than Windows is a bad
>> thing...
>>
> windows update will automatically reboot your system when it automatically
> updates it
> windows tried the optional stuff but now almost every case it requires a
> restart.

I don't like the term "experienced user" and I never feel comfortable
adding myself to that group but anyway,

- I don't want Windows to automatically reboot so I disable the
automatic Windows Update on the machines I'm using.

- I don't want my Fedora to reboot automatically so I disable and
remove PackageKit on the machines I'm using.

There isn't that much I could say about the times Fedora ask for a
reboot but at least I think it's kind of "unfair" to compare it with
an OS which pushes their updates just once a month.

Just my € 0.02.

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: fedora-devel-list-bounces@redhat.com [mailto:fedora-devel-list-
> bounces@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Eelko Berkenpies
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 05:09
> To: Development discussions related to Fedora
> Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
>
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Otto Haliburton
> <ottohaliburton@tx.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "nodata" <lsof@nodata.co.uk>
> > To: "Development discussions related to Fedora"
> > <fedora-devel-list@redhat.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:29 AM
> > Subject: Re: packages requiring me to reboot...
> >
> >
> >> Am 2009-12-16 18:21, schrieb Seth Vidal:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, nodata wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> we're talking about the experienced user who is comfortable knowing
> >>>>> what
> >>>>> does and does not need a reboot.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> All I'm saying is - we've not taken away any option, the experienced
> >>>>> user can do what they want.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -sv
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> True, but the default should be sensible.
> >>>
> >>> And the default is sensible for the inexperienced user:
> >>>
> >>> Don't try to explain to the user how to restart the apps individually,
> >>> tell them to bounce the box and it will be the right version when it
> >>> comes back.
> >>>
> >>> -sv
> >>>
> >>
> >> On the other hand I think requiring more reboots than Windows is a bad
> >> thing...
> >>
> > windows update will automatically reboot your system when it
> automatically
> > updates it
> > windows tried the optional stuff but now almost every case it requires a
> > restart.
>
> I don't like the term "experienced user" and I never feel comfortable
> adding myself to that group but anyway,
>
> - I don't want Windows to automatically reboot so I disable the
> automatic Windows Update on the machines I'm using.
>
> - I don't want my Fedora to reboot automatically so I disable and
> remove PackageKit on the machines I'm using.
>
> There isn't that much I could say about the times Fedora ask for a
> reboot but at least I think it's kind of "unfair" to compare it with
> an OS which pushes their updates just once a month.
>
> Just my € 0.02.
first of all PackageKit does not do mandatory reboots. If you hadn't
disabled it you would know that. In fact the people that are complaining
don't seem to have any idea why reboots are necessary. You need to get a
grip on file processing, cache, and other processes that speeds up execution
then you will know why it is not trivial. i.e. you kill a task that is in
the process of writing data to a file after you update it. What happens????
>
> --
> With kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Eelko Berkenpies
> http://blog.berkenpies.nl/
>
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On Wed, 2009-12-16 at 08:50 +0000, Richard Hughes wrote:
> 2009/12/15 Colin Walters <walters@verbum.org>:
> > This exists? Can you point me to the code?
>
> I only finished this just this morning.
>
> It's just been pushed to git master. You want to see this commit
> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/packagekit/commit/?id=66d3fc26054abd528ee18017d9c67edb6400f239
> for the juicy config bits.

Looking at 3cb32ad40af3a38456e09baf1b29b046d82c587e, AIUI the commit
with the code bits in it, I'm pretty sure you are now requiring
filelists to be downloaded for all updates.

> The UI isn't very pretty at the moment (it just fails with an update
> error) but I'll work on something a little bit more user friendly.

How do you plan on restarting firefox? Or you just planning to kill()
and get the user to restart?

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On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:51 AM, James Antill <james@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
> *How do you plan on restarting firefox? Or you just planning to kill()
> and get the user to restart?

Trying to send a close button event to the app's windows is probably
our best short-term approach; slightly longer term, we could have apps
expose a standard interface for Quit (e.g. over dbus).

Knowing how to restart is trickier, (though we could use the
window-to-app mapping system we need for gnome 3 anyways) but it's
also very simple in this case if we require that packages contain at
most one .desktop file.

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On Thu, 2009-12-17 at 10:51 -0500, James Antill wrote:

> > The UI isn't very pretty at the moment (it just fails with an update
> > error) but I'll work on something a little bit more user friendly.
>
> How do you plan on restarting firefox? Or you just planning to kill()
> and get the user to restart?

If we're just talking about Firefox (i.e. not the general case), then it
has its own 'restart Firefox' hook you might be able to access. It's
used, for instance, when you enable or disable an extension. I'm not
sure if you can poke it from an external app easily, though.
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