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Old 12-11-2008, 05:51 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Making updates-testing more useful

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Richard Hughes <hughsient@gmail.com> wrote:
> The real question is, will this clutter the UI and
> confuse new users?

Perfectly valid questions, that I am most definitely the wrong person
to look for an answer. Since all the UI's I design are designed to be
user unfriendly.

I am still interesting in the nag notifications if I can get them once
updates-testing is enabled. As an updates-testing user...being nagged
as to what testing things I have installed which deserve some
feedback..would really help me remember to provide feedback.

-jef

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Old 12-12-2008, 05:06 AM
Thorsten Leemhuis
 
Default Making updates-testing more useful

On 11.12.2008 19:28, Richard Hughes wrote:


Yes, we can easily enable the testing repos with a small button and a
more info link. The real question is, will this clutter the UI and
confuse new users?


Another good question (related to the "will this confuse new users"
part): Will you enable the updates-testing repos from 3rd party repos in
the same step automatically? Otherwise people that use those repos will
now and then run into dependency troubles -- for example when a new
xine-lib enters updates-testing from Fedora and xine-lib-extras-nonfree
enters updates-testing from RPM Fusion at the same time.


But well, likely it doesn't matter to much anyway, as yum is still
pretty broken in such situations anyway, as mirror lags will confuse it:

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-August/msg00041.html

CU
knurd

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Old 12-12-2008, 08:50 AM
Richard Hughes
 
Default Making updates-testing more useful

On Thu, 2008-12-11 at 09:51 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> I am still interesting in the nag notifications if I can get them once
> updates-testing is enabled. As an updates-testing user...being nagged
> as to what testing things I have installed which deserve some
> feedback..would really help me remember to provide feedback.

This part is much harder. We do log what package comes from what repo,
but we don't know how many times the user actually used it. There's no
point asking the user "You've not given feedback on kdebase in 10 says"
if you've been using gnome for 10 days exclusively, and kdebase is only
installed because k3b is used every now and then.

I do think we need to log what programs have been run, and for how long
for lots of other reasons as well, but that seems to make people very
worried, very quickly.

Richard.


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Old 12-12-2008, 08:55 AM
Richard Hughes
 
Default Making updates-testing more useful

On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 07:06 +0100, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
> On 11.12.2008 19:28, Richard Hughes wrote:
> >
> > Yes, we can easily enable the testing repos with a small button and a
> > more info link. The real question is, will this clutter the UI and
> > confuse new users?
>
> Another good question (related to the "will this confuse new users"
> part): Will you enable the updates-testing repos from 3rd party repos in
> the same step automatically?

Yes. If the user has fedora and rpmfusion enabled, but livna disabled,
it'll do in the first pass:

updates from all configured and enabled sources

and on the second pass:

disable fedora and rpmfusion
enable fedora-testing and rpmfusion-testing
updates from all configured and enabled sources
enable fedora and rpmfusion
disable fedora-testing and rpmfusion-testing

If you've got livna installed then it shouldn't touch the repo. The
tricky bit is the heuristic that matches up rpmfusion-testing to
rpmfusion.

> Otherwise people that use those repos will
> now and then run into dependency troubles -- for example when a new
> xine-lib enters updates-testing from Fedora and xine-lib-extras-nonfree
> enters updates-testing from RPM Fusion at the same time.

We should handle that.

> But well, likely it doesn't matter to much anyway, as yum is still
> pretty broken in such situations anyway, as mirror lags will confuse it:
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-August/msg00041.html

We can't do much about mirror lags, but we do switch on --skip-broken by
default which sort of mitigates things.

Richard.


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Old 12-12-2008, 02:00 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default Making updates-testing more useful

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:

Another good question (related to the "will this confuse new users" part):
Will you enable the updates-testing repos from 3rd party repos in the same
step automatically? Otherwise people that use those repos will now and then
run into dependency troubles -- for example when a new xine-lib enters
updates-testing from Fedora and xine-lib-extras-nonfree enters
updates-testing from RPM Fusion at the same time.


But well, likely it doesn't matter to much anyway, as yum is still pretty
broken in such situations anyway, as mirror lags will confuse it:

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-August/msg00041.html


Yes, that's right yum is broken b/c the mirrors are out of sync.

Just like Apache is broken when a 404 is issued. It must be apache's fault
that the data is missing or broken.


Cmon, Thorsten, your command of english is excellent, you can phrase that
a bit better.


-sv

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Old 12-12-2008, 02:13 PM
"Thomas Moschny"
 
Default Making updates-testing more useful

2008/12/12 Seth Vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org>:
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
>
>> Another good question (related to the "will this confuse new users" part):
>> Will you enable the updates-testing repos from 3rd party repos in the same
>> step automatically? Otherwise people that use those repos will now and then
>> run into dependency troubles -- for example when a new xine-lib enters
>> updates-testing from Fedora and xine-lib-extras-nonfree enters
>> updates-testing from RPM Fusion at the same time.
>>
>> But well, likely it doesn't matter to much anyway, as yum is still pretty
>> broken in such situations anyway, as mirror lags will confuse it:
>>
>> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-August/msg00041.html
>
> Yes, that's right yum is broken b/c the mirrors are out of sync.

No matter how hard you try, there will always be a small period in
time where mirrors are out of sync. And this especially holds for the
synchronization between the main Fedora repo and third party repos.

So there should be a mechanism developed to make yum aware of the fact
that one repo (or mirror) it uses is behind others - because that can
lead to (virtual) dependency problems which probably should be
reported to the end user in a different way than intra-repo dependency
problems.

- Thomas

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Old 12-12-2008, 02:15 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default Making updates-testing more useful

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, Thomas Moschny wrote:


2008/12/12 Seth Vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org>:

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:


Another good question (related to the "will this confuse new users" part):
Will you enable the updates-testing repos from 3rd party repos in the same
step automatically? Otherwise people that use those repos will now and then
run into dependency troubles -- for example when a new xine-lib enters
updates-testing from Fedora and xine-lib-extras-nonfree enters
updates-testing from RPM Fusion at the same time.

But well, likely it doesn't matter to much anyway, as yum is still pretty
broken in such situations anyway, as mirror lags will confuse it:

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-August/msg00041.html


Yes, that's right yum is broken b/c the mirrors are out of sync.


No matter how hard you try, there will always be a small period in
time where mirrors are out of sync. And this especially holds for the
synchronization between the main Fedora repo and third party repos.

So there should be a mechanism developed to make yum aware of the fact
that one repo (or mirror) it uses is behind others - because that can
lead to (virtual) dependency problems which probably should be
reported to the end user in a different way than intra-repo dependency
problems.


what do you mean 'virtual' dependency problems? They are not virtual they
are actual dependency issues.


-sv



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Old 12-12-2008, 02:26 PM
"Thomas Moschny"
 
Default Making updates-testing more useful

2008/12/12 Seth Vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org>:

>>> Yes, that's right yum is broken b/c the mirrors are out of sync.
>>
>> No matter how hard you try, there will always be a small period in
>> time where mirrors are out of sync. And this especially holds for the
>> synchronization between the main Fedora repo and third party repos.
>>
>> So there should be a mechanism developed to make yum aware of the fact
>> that one repo (or mirror) it uses is behind others - because that can
>> lead to (virtual) dependency problems which probably should be
>> reported to the end user in a different way than intra-repo dependency
>> problems.
>
> what do you mean 'virtual' dependency problems? They are not virtual they
> are actual dependency issues.

Yeah, sure, from the dependency solver's technical pov.

But, especially in case of a lagging mirror, they are 'virtual' in
that they could vanish immediately by using another mirror.

And this can be detected, if you give each repo an epoch or timestamp
and something like that.

A dependency problem in the set of packages provided by
(fedora base, updates from today, rpmfusion from today)
is somehow more 'severe' than a dependency problem from
(fedora base, updates from today, rpmfusion from yesterday)

- Thomas

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Old 12-12-2008, 02:32 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default Making updates-testing more useful

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, Thomas Moschny wrote:



Yeah, sure, from the dependency solver's technical pov.

But, especially in case of a lagging mirror, they are 'virtual' in
that they could vanish immediately by using another mirror.

And this can be detected, if you give each repo an epoch or timestamp
and something like that.

A dependency problem in the set of packages provided by
(fedora base, updates from today, rpmfusion from today)
is somehow more 'severe' than a dependency problem from
(fedora base, updates from today, rpmfusion from yesterday)



How? It's the same to the user. They can't do what they wanted to do b/c
they're out of sync.


-sv

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Old 12-12-2008, 02:47 PM
"Thomas Moschny"
 
Default Making updates-testing more useful

2008/12/12 Seth Vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org>:
>> A dependency problem in the set of packages provided by
>> (fedora base, updates from today, rpmfusion from today)
>> is somehow more 'severe' than a dependency problem from
>> (fedora base, updates from today, rpmfusion from yesterday)
>
> How? It's the same to the user. They can't do what they wanted to do b/c
> they're out of sync.

That's not true. They could go and report the dependency problems
somewhere - which would be superfluous work in case their mirror is
simply behind. And btw, how do you know what they really wanted -
probably they simply run yum upgrade.

- Thomas

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