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Old 12-09-2008, 10:29 AM
Jeroen van Meeuwen
 
Default Live CD & Localization (was: What Fedora makes sucking for me - or why I am NOT Fedora)

Robert Scheck wrote:

Oh, we've the Live CD for a long time now. Did anybody use that medium on a
slower, older computer? Surely not. Otherwise you would have noticed, that
the Live CD is very slow there. The USB stick/variant may be fast, but the
CD which we're now promoting at our download page better and more that the
installation DVD, is IMHO not a good store sign as it is just slow. It even
has not a localisation - folks, not the whole world is speaking english,
just there is America on the worldmap! I know people from fairs, which are
really frusted by their first try with a Live CD as it was just English.
Yes, we maybe can create a spin, but these ones, we cannot offer on the FTP
and HTTP mirrors, because Fedora is already too big. On the other hand, the
issue of a non-US keyboard layout when trying to generate a localized
version of the Live medium is still not fixed. There were some tries to
solve that on LinuxTag 2008, but as far as I know, afterwards nobody again
cared about and it went down.



As the Spin SIG leader, I feel this is my piece of the pie.

As far as the localization of Live CDs and DVDs is concerned, I cannot
but wholeheartedly agree;


The Live media is supposed to be the perfect show-case of whatever
Fedora can do or KDE 4.X foo brings. If that's in English by default,
that's fine, I'm not saying we should include kde-l10n-* on a LiveCD
because that simply won't fit.


However, if that supposedly perfect show-case can be in German, Dutch,
Swahili or you-name-the-language, the better. Localization is one of the
selling points of Linux in general (because you get a lot of it for no
mentionable effort -other then selecting your locale and browsing
through the giant list of available locales), and it's one of the
selling points of Fedora specifically (transifex, upstream, you know the
story). And that's besides the difficulty or annoyance people sometimes
experience when that supposedly perfect show-case is not in their
favorite language.


In an effort to make these localized LiveCDs maintainable, I've accepted
every contributor that wanted to create localized extensions of each
spin concept. I know that Fabian Affolter and Igor Pieres Soares have
done a good job at creating and maintaining their locales, and I ship
them in the spin-kickstarts package for everyone to use.


Of course, that's only one small piece of the pie. We would love to
create the spins on Fedora Infrastructure, or outside of Fedora
Infrastructure (but that introduces verifiability constraints we're
unable to get past yet) and have them promoted and distributed by the
Fedora Project. However, that only stretches so far. There's a limited
amount of Release Engineering the Fedora Project can do -being Jesse
Keating, especially around Fedora N GA. In addition, there's a limited
amount of QA the Fedora Project can do, and since it would be the Fedora
Project composing, promoting and distributing such localized spin, it
better be a good one.


Instead of thinking in terms of problems though, I like to think in
terms of (potential) solutions. One of the solutions I suggested is that
outside of Release Engineering, the localized spins can be created by
peers (possibly Spin SIG members, possibly localized Spin maintainers)
-to offload Release Engineering. It's a standard, pretty
straight-forward process.


As for the promotion part... Well that's not really a problem, is it? It
just depends on the composing and distribution parts.


Then in terms of distribution, which is another challenge for the Fedora
Project, I've suggested we let the seeds for a torrent be the
responsibility of the Spin maintainers. In practice, that responsibility
boils down to: No Seeds, No Spin. The Fedora Project however would still
host the torrent tracker so they have control over revocation and/or
modification of the spin/torrent.


Since then, the discussion has come to a halt. I guess we were involved
with other stuff, we didn't see much localization happening yet (as far
as the kickstart repo is concerned, that is), and we lost interest in
pursuing it for Fedora 10.


I hope this brings some perspective to the issue of localized live
media, and I certainly hope this starts up a new discussion around
including localized versions of spins, one way or the other, in F11.


Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

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Old 12-10-2008, 03:41 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Live CD & Localization (was: What Fedora makes sucking for me - or why I am NOT Fedora)

On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 12:29 +0100, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
> The Fedora Project however would still
> host the torrent tracker so they have control over revocation and/or
> modification of the spin/torrent.

The problem that this still leaves is currently to host the tracker, we
have to host the bits, and when you start multiplying each spin by 3 or
5 for languages, that space adds up /really/ quickly. And it's a /ton/
of duplicate data. The project just doesn't have the resources to host
that many spins per release.

We have to pick things which are interesting and worth the usage of
space. In the past that has been include as many vastly different
things as possible, and have some form of !English support in them. We
could go the other direction, pick /one/ spin to feature and then offer
it in as many different language specific variations of it as possible.

--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom˛ is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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Old 12-10-2008, 07:37 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Live CD & Localization (was: What Fedora makes sucking for me - or why I am NOT Fedora)

On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 22:01 +0200, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
> Jesse, Jeroen was saying specifically that seeding would be the
> responsibility of the maintainers of the spin & NOT the projects - only
> the torrent would be needed for the tracker to host the spin, then. He
> was saying that FP still could revoke the spin by not tracking the
> torrent, which would pull it out of official circulation.
>
> Unless you meant something else, your concerns were addressed already...

As of yet, nobody has completed the ticket that would allow the fedora
torrent tracker to track the .torrent file only, and not have the bits
there as well.

I have other concerns which mostly revolve around timing of the release
of the spins, that the final moments before a compose becomes "gold" for
a given release we're often creating scratch repos of last minute
updates that need to be included in the spins. Making these accessible
to all the various different places that could be making spins, and
keeping them coordinated is going to be a huge hurdle, unless we tell
these spin folks that they have to wait until after GA to make their
spins.

Then we run into the fun of "official" Fedora content being created on
machines outside the control of the Fedora Infrastructure. Doesn't sit
very warm and fuzzy in my head.

--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom˛ is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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Old 12-10-2008, 07:40 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default Live CD & Localization (was: What Fedora makes sucking for me - or why I am NOT Fedora)

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Jesse Keating wrote:


On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 22:01 +0200, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:

Jesse, Jeroen was saying specifically that seeding would be the
responsibility of the maintainers of the spin & NOT the projects - only
the torrent would be needed for the tracker to host the spin, then. He
was saying that FP still could revoke the spin by not tracking the
torrent, which would pull it out of official circulation.

Unless you meant something else, your concerns were addressed already...


As of yet, nobody has completed the ticket that would allow the fedora
torrent tracker to track the .torrent file only, and not have the bits
there as well.



?? The tracker can't track just the .torrent file?

Which ticket is this?

-sv

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Old 12-10-2008, 07:45 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Live CD & Localization (was: What Fedora makes sucking for me - or why I am NOT Fedora)

On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 15:40 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote:
>
> ?? The tracker can't track just the .torrent file?
>
> Which ticket is this?

I don't know the details. It was a ticket somewhere in the Fedora
Infrastructure trac, assigned to dgilmore, about being able to use our
tracker to track torrents hosted elsewhere. Dennis?

--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom˛ is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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Old 12-10-2008, 07:50 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default Live CD & Localization (was: What Fedora makes sucking for me - or why I am NOT Fedora)

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Jesse Keating wrote:


On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 15:40 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote:


?? The tracker can't track just the .torrent file?

Which ticket is this?


I don't know the details. It was a ticket somewhere in the Fedora
Infrastructure trac, assigned to dgilmore, about being able to use our
tracker to track torrents hosted elsewhere. Dennis?



Dennis, if you know the right number, ping me about it - I can take it
over.


-sv

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