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Old 11-27-2008, 11:54 AM
Pierre-Yves
 
Default Feature proposal: New, Standard Documentation System

Matej Cepl wrote:

On 2008-11-27, 10:42 GMT, Pierre-Yves wrote:

'The requested URI "man:///mans" is invalid'

err "man:///man"


KDE or Gnome? If Gnome (where it works for me) which version of
yelp is installed?

yelp-2.24.0-3.fc10.x86_64
Gnome
F10 fresh from 2 days

Thanks,

Pierre

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Old 11-27-2008, 12:03 PM
Matej Cepl
 
Default Feature proposal: New, Standard Documentation System

On 2008-11-27, 12:54 GMT, Pierre-Yves wrote:
> Matej Cepl wrote:
>> On 2008-11-27, 10:42 GMT, Pierre-Yves wrote:
>>>> 'The requested URI "man:///mans" is invalid'
>>> err "man:///man"
>>
>> KDE or Gnome? If Gnome (where it works for me) which version of
>> yelp is installed?
> yelp-2.24.0-3.fc10.x86_64
> Gnome
> F10 fresh from 2 days

yes, you are right. Sorry,
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=473257

Matěj

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Old 11-27-2008, 12:10 PM
Olivier Galibert
 
Default Feature proposal: New, Standard Documentation System

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 12:41:13AM -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> Before this "manpage-to-HTML" idea goes any further, I'd like to stop it.
>
> This is not what I have envisioned. An HTML rendering engine is too
> beefy. I'm going on previous Fedora requirements of lighter
> documentation engines, particularly the release notes in anaconda.

If you think than groff (man), tex/makeinfo (info), docbook and their
friends are significantly lighter than an html rendering engine,
you're deluded. Some of them only seem lighter because the files are
pre-rendered to slightly enriched text at installation time.

Now, if you'd manage to come up with a xterm/console and a graphical
tool that could find what documentation is available for a particular
command (be it man, texinfo, docbook or whatever kde, gnome, qt,
java... uses) and show it on the text or graphical interface the best
it can with unified navigation commands (including search), you would
make a lot of people happy.

But a unification of documentation formats is something that just will
not happen *even* if you make converters available.

OG.

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Old 11-27-2008, 03:23 PM
"Richard W.M. Jones"
 
Default Feature proposal: New, Standard Documentation System

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 11:06:19AM +0100, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
> On 27.11.2008 10:32, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
>> Debian forces all programs to come with a man page. If one is
>> missing, this is considered a bug and packagers have to write one.
>>
>> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-docs.html
>
> My 2 cent: It would be way better for everyone to get those man pages
> upstream.

I should clarify three points.

+1 to the suggestion that man pages should go upstream. They should
be treated just like any other patch. We should encourage Debian to
do the same, but if they don't we take Debian's man pages and push
them upstream ourselves.

My second point is that it's a really useful feature of Debian that
_any_ command, any many configuration files and other files, are
documented using 'man'. I find it a big negative against Fedora that
things aren't so consistently documented.

And lastly I'm not suggesting that beginners should have to type 'man
foo'. Once everything is available as a man page, it should be
relatively easy to present those in the UI through some suitable
mechanism, whether that is groff->HTML conversion or whatever.

Rich.

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Old 11-27-2008, 04:12 PM
"Trond Danielsen"
 
Default Feature proposal: New, Standard Documentation System

2008/11/27 Richard W.M. Jones <rjones@redhat.com>:
> And lastly I'm not suggesting that beginners should have to type 'man
> foo'. Once everything is available as a man page, it should be
> relatively easy to present those in the UI through some suitable
> mechanism, whether that is groff->HTML conversion or whatever.

Last time I checked both man and info pages are available though the
gnome yelp browser. That already provide a convenient and searchable
interface for both experienced and inexperienced users.

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Old 11-27-2008, 04:53 PM
Todd Zullinger
 
Default Feature proposal: New, Standard Documentation System

Trond Danielsen wrote:
> Last time I checked both man and info pages are available though the
> gnome yelp browser. That already provide a convenient and searchable
> interface for both experienced and inexperienced users.

Check again.

This seems to be broken on F10 at least, and possibly F9 as well -- it
has been a while since I checked on F9. Matěj filed this bug earlier
today: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=473257

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Old 11-27-2008, 05:03 PM
Callum Lerwick
 
Default Feature proposal: New, Standard Documentation System

On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 00:41 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> Before this "manpage-to-HTML" idea goes any further, I'd like to stop
> it.
>
> This is not what I have envisioned. An HTML rendering engine is too
> beefy. I'm going on previous Fedora requirements of lighter
> documentation engines, particularly the release notes in anaconda.

Anything but HTML is insane in this day and age. If a full HTML engine
is too heavy, use a simple subset. There's plenty of options, Gecko,
WebKit, GtkHTML, Dillo, Lynx, Links...

You don't have to write in HTML, you can derive it from just about
anything else. Man pages, GNU info, docbook, Doxygen, Javadoc,
OpenOffice Writer... No need to force all upstreams to one format.

Really the problem here is front end UI. There's yelp, but I wish I
could just browse documentation inside Firefox...

Hell, carrying around documentation is one of the major disk eaters in a
Fedora install.

$ du -sh /usr/share/doc/
377M /usr/share/doc/

What would be neat is if we could transparently grab documentation from
online instead of having it eat up disk space even though you probably
only ever need a fraction of it... Hmmmm...

What say we hack up a script to pull all documentation out of every RPM
in a release, convert all man and info pages to HTML, and put it all up
on docs.fedoraproject.org? Then embed a Google search on top of it. Ta
da, a one stop shop for all documentation.
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Old 11-27-2008, 08:51 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Feature proposal: New, Standard Documentation System

On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 12:53 -0500, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> Trond Danielsen wrote:
> > Last time I checked both man and info pages are available though the
> > gnome yelp browser. That already provide a convenient and searchable
> > interface for both experienced and inexperienced users.
>
> Check again.
>
> This seems to be broken on F10 at least, and possibly F9 as well -- it
> has been a while since I checked on F9. Matěj filed this bug earlier
> today: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=473257
>

It works, more or less. Try entering 'fdisk' in the search entry. It
shows the man page just fine. It doesn't work perfectly for all man
pages, but then man pages are not exactly structured documentation that
is friendly for indexing or reformatting...



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Old 11-27-2008, 11:05 PM
"Gergely Buday"
 
Default Feature proposal: New, Standard Documentation System

Callum Lerwick wrote:

> Anything but HTML is insane in this day and age.

and

> Hell, carrying around documentation is one of the major disk eaters in a
> Fedora install.
>
> $ du -sh /usr/share/doc/
> 377M /usr/share/doc/

I guess not the man pages eat that disk space. Their hunger for
storage is quite minimal. That documentation should be html with
images and pdf/ps.

- Gergely

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Old 11-27-2008, 11:21 PM
Till Maas
 
Default Feature proposal: New, Standard Documentation System

On Fri November 28 2008, Gergely Buday wrote:
> Callum Lerwick wrote:
> > Anything but HTML is insane in this day and age.
>
> and
>
> > Hell, carrying around documentation is one of the major disk eaters in a
> > Fedora install.
> >
> > $ du -sh /usr/share/doc/
> > 377M /usr/share/doc/
>
> I guess not the man pages eat that disk space. Their hunger for
> storage is quite minimal. That documentation should be html with
> images and pdf/ps.

And I know it, because manpages live in /usr/share/man:
$ du -hs /usr/share/man
59M /usr/share/man
$ du -hs /usr/share/doc
604M /usr/share/doc

Manpages have the big advantage of beeing gziped.

Regards,
Till
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