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Old 11-20-2008, 07:23 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default What do we need from Bugzilla? (was: My roadmap for a better Fedora)

Jesse Keating wrote:

On Thu, 2008-11-20 at 13:02 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:

Agreed. Which is one of the major driving factors for this
questionnaire thread. I figure Bugzilla must be doing some things
right.


It's not that it's doing things right, it's just too cost prohibitive to
create something else to do the same things in the same predictably
wrong way (:


That's actually pretty funny when compared to the reaction I get here to
comments regarding API and functional changes in fedora itself.


But, lots of people like trac these days.

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Old 11-21-2008, 08:22 AM
Matej Cepl
 
Default What do we need from Bugzilla? (was: My roadmap for a better Fedora)

On 2008-11-21, 01:20 GMT, Andrew Cagney wrote:
> I'd like a "push upstream" button, as in create a corresponding bug in
> the master upstream bug database. Bonus points if it then keeps them
> somewhat in sync :-)

AMEN!!! And I think we should concentrate on this rather than
doing stupid bugzilla rewrites. Sorry, for being harsh, but it is
so IMNSHO.

Matěj

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Old 11-21-2008, 08:28 AM
Till Maas
 
Default What do we need from Bugzilla? (was: My roadmap for a better Fedora)

On Wed November 19 2008, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> This question is (for now) most a question of interest and curiosity.
> Maybe one day I may be bored and try to rewrite Bugzilla, who knows.

If you want to write a Bugtracker for Fedora, it would be nice to support the
special needs of Fedora. What I am missing is the possibility of having
several people beeing responsible for a Component, which is currently only
partly possible. There is the initial CC list, but when a bug is reassigned
to a different component, the members of the initial CC list of the old
component are not removed from the list.

Also it is not easily possible store within one bug report which Fedora
release and which package versions are affected. The NEVR of the package is
only added by some reporters in the initial comment, but not within some
dedicated field. Also having several bug reports for the same bug but on
different Fedora releases would mean to create up to four bug reports, with
independend CC lists and independant comment flows, but most of the comments
would be normally relevant to all Fedora releases.

Regards,
Till
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Old 11-21-2008, 09:44 AM
Matej Cepl
 
Default What do we need from Bugzilla? (was: My roadmap for a better Fedora)

On 2008-11-21, 09:50 GMT, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
>> I'd like a "push upstream" button, as in create
>> a corresponding bug in
>> the master upstream bug database. Bonus points if it then keeps them
>> somewhat in sync :-)

I have written about this a little bit before
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/79936

> - Users have to be pushed upstream as well. The reporter of the
> bug in bugzilla.redhat.com must stay the reporter in the
> upstreamed bug report.

No, they shouldn't and they shouldn't need to. We cannot force
our reporters to crete accounts in the upstream bugzillas. We
should deliver comments from the upstream bugzilla to our one
(via XML-RPC I guess).

> - You need to check for dupes and not blindly open a bug in the upstream
> bug tracker.

This is difficult -- yes, probably we could open the query from
the upstream bugzilla in other tab. However, I have to admit that
after brief query in the upstream database (e.g., in mozilla with
the query tool in the new bug page) I just dump the bug there and
let upstream triagers show that they know much better what's in
their bugzilla.

> - Even if most upstreams use bugzilla, their notions of products and
> components is different from Red Hat/Fedora's. You'll need to work out
> a mapping from one to the other.

Of course.

Matěj

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Old 11-21-2008, 09:47 AM
Matej Cepl
 
Default What do we need from Bugzilla? (was: My roadmap for a better Fedora)

On 2008-11-21, 10:09 GMT, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote:
> I'm beginning to see why Canonical thinks their Launchpad has
> to have only one global instance.

I think it IS doable -- just some programmer has to sit on his
butt and do it. And communicate a lot with the bugzilla upstream.

Matěj

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Old 11-21-2008, 01:05 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default What do we need from Bugzilla? (was: My roadmap for a better Fedora)

Emmanuel Seyman wrote:

* Matej Cepl [21/11/2008 12:15] :
No, they shouldn't and they shouldn't need to. We cannot force
our reporters to crete accounts in the upstream bugzillas. We
should deliver comments from the upstream bugzilla to our one
(via XML-RPC I guess).


This has the inconvenience that :

a) Two (or more) conversations are taking place in the bug report.
b) Comments like "the fix proposed in comment #7 looks good" lose
all meaning, unless you know what comments come from which bug
tracker.

I suppose we can live with it, though.

the upstream bugzilla in other tab. However, I have to admit that
after brief query in the upstream database (e.g., in mozilla with
the query tool in the new bug page) I just dump the bug there and
let upstream triagers show that they know much better what's in
their bugzilla.


Thanks for making their work more difficult, I guess.


If someone does this right, maybe it would be possible to cascade all
the way up from user/site/enterprise instances and a working version
included in the distribution would have templates for all the packages
and a checkbox for whether or not to push a specific entry upstream or
not. That way everyone could track their own problems, their local or
company helpdesk could be added as the next escalation, and on to the
distribution if it wasn't a local problem without having to deal with
different interfaces or creating new logins.


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Old 11-21-2008, 03:20 PM
Casey Dahlin
 
Default What do we need from Bugzilla? (was: My roadmap for a better Fedora)

Matej Cepl wrote:

On 2008-11-20, 18:57 GMT, Casey Dahlin wrote:

Either way I think a new bug tracker would be an opportunity to
improve on this point.



Great, write one ;-).


I'm forcefully restraining myself from doing so.

--CJD

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Old 11-21-2008, 06:33 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default What do we need from Bugzilla? (was: My roadmap for a better Fedora)

Emmanuel Seyman wrote:

If someone does this right, maybe it would be possible to cascade all
the way up from user/site/enterprise instances and a working version


It could be done. This is why so much work has been done on the XML-RPC
workings for Bugzilla 3.2.


xml-rpc may be workable for close-coupled systems, like distro-specific
and an upstream package or branch offices or teams to a central office,
but it's not going to work for large scale fanout.


included in the distribution would have templates for all the packages
and a checkbox for whether or not to push a specific entry upstream or
not.


Deciding to push a bug upstream or not cannot be reduced to checking a
box or pushing a button.


Wrong answer, if anyone actually wants those bug reports.


You need to search the upstream bug tracker
before submitting and link your bug to an already existing bug in
upstream if it already exists, fill in new fields and make sure that
the fields that are dropped don't make the bug incomprehensible.


Then you haven't made anything easier. It really does have to be a
'check this box' choice if you want to get them. What if you had a mail
transport option, hooked to something resembling a moderated mailman
list upstream for every pre-configured category where you would like
reports? The 'send upstream' option would send something both
human-readable and machine-parsable to the list. The receiving list
would have the option to auto-reply with instructions to the user as to
where and how to manually re-enter this bug, or to auto-create a new bug
for the package (that might need to be merged with lots of others
later), or something in between that the moderator(s) could choose. It
might even be possible for such a thing to exist as a real mail list
answered by humans or that it could attract volunteers for moderating
the input into the right places. In any case an approach like this
sounds feasible whereas expecting an end user with a problem to figure
out what some upstream tracker's peculiar fields means is not. But,
once someone arbitrated the inbound message to the right place,
subsequent correspondence would just work, more or less.


And, of course you would want this mechanism to be able to cascade
downstream too, so any organization could use it to track local problems
with the option to push it up to the next level, whatever that might be,
without having to be completely aware of how to do that correctly.


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Old 11-21-2008, 07:53 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default What do we need from Bugzilla? (was: My roadmap for a better Fedora)

Emmanuel Seyman wrote:

* Les Mikesell [21/11/2008 20:49] :

Deciding to push a bug upstream or not cannot be reduced to checking a
box or pushing a button.

Wrong answer, if anyone actually wants those bug reports.


Sheer volume of bug reports will not improve development, especially
if the increase is only in the form of duplicate bugs.


I'd assume a model where some small percentage are valuable so
increasing the volume will bring in more meaningful ones. The hard part
is filtering them without losing the good ones.



In fact, this
will slow down development because more time will have to be spent on
bug triage, taking time away from bug fixing.


That's something that less specialized volunteers could do. They would
only need to understand the bugzilla structure and how to determine if a
new entry was a duplicate or not. Maybe that could even be automated.
If you can't describe the process well enough to automate it, you can't
expect a new user with a problem to be able to understand what you want
them to do. Even the worst case of replying with a mailman
auto-response that has a FAQ for the bugzilla and list of currently
known problems would be better than no contact at all and would leave
you with a database of user experiences that you could mine if you
decide it is worthwhile. And the better case gets the email of an
affected user that will provide the details you need to solve a problem
into the tracking ticket.


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Old 11-21-2008, 09:58 PM
Matej Cepl
 
Default What do we need from Bugzilla? (was: My roadmap for a better Fedora)

On 2008-11-21, 11:25 GMT, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> Thanks for making their work more difficult, I guess.

I am a bugmaster for the desktop team, so I know a little bit
what I am doing -- if you are sitting on the email getting all
NEW bugs into your desktop, catching duplicates is not that big
problem. After some time, you have some handle on what's the
current bug-of-the-week, which helps you to quickly eliminate
many bugs just in the beginning.

Matěj

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