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Old 11-17-2008, 08:35 PM
Jon Masters
 
Default F11 Proposal: Stabilization

Yo,

Can I make a proposal for a major theme for an upcoming Fedora (whether
F11 or F12): Stabilization.

Rather than the latest bells and whistles, I would personally much
prefer that stuff that used to work didn't break randomly, and that
stable Fedora updates wouldn't result in me wondering whether suspend,
graphics, SELinux, or some other feature that was working was going to
break today. This isn't actually a rant, more pointing out a necessity.

Discuss.

Jon.


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Old 11-17-2008, 08:37 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default F11 Proposal: Stabilization

Jon Masters (jonathan@jonmasters.org) said:
> Can I make a proposal for a major theme for an upcoming Fedora (whether
> F11 or F12): Stabilization.
>
> Rather than the latest bells and whistles, I would personally much
> prefer that stuff that used to work didn't break randomly, and that
> stable Fedora updates wouldn't result in me wondering whether suspend,
> graphics, SELinux, or some other feature that was working was going to
> break today. This isn't actually a rant, more pointing out a necessity.

Well, 'stable updates' wouldn't apply to F11 for quite a while now.

Bill

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Old 11-17-2008, 08:47 PM
"Tom "spot" Callaway"
 
Default F11 Proposal: Stabilization

On Mon, 2008-11-17 at 16:35 -0500, Jon Masters wrote:
> Yo,
>
> Can I make a proposal for a major theme for an upcoming Fedora (whether
> F11 or F12): Stabilization.
>
> Rather than the latest bells and whistles, I would personally much
> prefer that stuff that used to work didn't break randomly, and that
> stable Fedora updates wouldn't result in me wondering whether suspend,
> graphics, SELinux, or some other feature that was working was going to
> break today. This isn't actually a rant, more pointing out a necessity.

I'm not sure what magic fairy we'll have to sacrifice for this. We're
always going to be moving forward and things are going to break.

If you're volunteering to help QA, then I applaud you.

~spot

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Old 11-17-2008, 08:47 PM
Casey Dahlin
 
Default F11 Proposal: Stabilization

Bill Nottingham wrote:
Jon Masters (jonathan@jonmasters.org) said:


Can I make a proposal for a major theme for an upcoming Fedora (whether
F11 or F12): Stabilization.

Rather than the latest bells and whistles, I would personally much
prefer that stuff that used to work didn't break randomly, and that
stable Fedora updates wouldn't result in me wondering whether suspend,
graphics, SELinux, or some other feature that was working was going to
break today. This isn't actually a rant, more pointing out a necessity.



Well, 'stable updates' wouldn't apply to F11 for quite a while now.

Bill



Its never too early to start implementing the necessary bureaucracy

If John is volunteering to own it I'd like to see where this goes. I'd
be interested to know what beyond "don't break stuff" is necessary to
make this work.


--CJD

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Old 11-17-2008, 08:54 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default F11 Proposal: Stabilization

On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Casey Dahlin <cdahlin@redhat.com> wrote:
>> Well, 'stable updates' wouldn't apply to F11 for quite a while now.

The proposal is more emotive than actionable so there isn't much to
discuss really.

But as a matainer, here's what I'll do. If Jon builds a set of
automated test scripts and integrates them into the build environment
and update-testing system, I will promise to make an effort to read
the resulting bugzilla tickets produced when the scripts find a
deficiency that would have resulted in a regression. Can you really
expect me to do more than that?

-jef

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Old 11-17-2008, 09:16 PM
Jon Masters
 
Default F11 Proposal: Stabilization

On Mon, 2008-11-17 at 12:54 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Casey Dahlin <cdahlin@redhat.com> wrote:
> >> Well, 'stable updates' wouldn't apply to F11 for quite a while now.
>
> The proposal is more emotive than actionable so there isn't much to
> discuss really.

I disagree. Various other communities (and distributions) have made a
point out of "stable" releases where the "big ticket" feature is
stabilization, so I think it would be a win to consider that. It's
harder to recommend Fedora to friends when they see stuff break.

Cheers,

Jon.


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Old 11-17-2008, 09:30 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default F11 Proposal: Stabilization

On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Jon Masters <jonathan@jonmasters.org> wrote:
> I disagree. Various other communities (and distributions) have made a
> point out of "stable" releases where the "big ticket" feature is
> stabilization, so I think it would be a win to consider that. It's
> harder to recommend Fedora to friends when they see stuff break.

I'm not hearing any concrete action items on how you think we could do
better inside of our process. I gave you a hint as to where you could
be focusing your effort to drive improvment.


-jef"really wants to drill down into the unspoken assumption that
underlines the line of reasoning expressed here. Just because someone
says they make stability a high priority does not mean they are doing
better at it. But that is for another time, after I've had a chance
to deep dive into bug data from which rationale conclusions can be
drawn."spaleta

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Old 11-18-2008, 05:10 AM
Dave Airlie
 
Default F11 Proposal: Stabilization

On Mon, 2008-11-17 at 16:35 -0500, Jon Masters wrote:
> Yo,
>
> Can I make a proposal for a major theme for an upcoming Fedora (whether
> F11 or F12): Stabilization.
>
> Rather than the latest bells and whistles, I would personally much
> prefer that stuff that used to work didn't break randomly, and that
> stable Fedora updates wouldn't result in me wondering whether suspend,
> graphics, SELinux, or some other feature that was working was going to
> break today. This isn't actually a rant, more pointing out a necessity.
>

really short of everyone stopping developing, moving to QA, and only
fixing bugs from QA, I think its not going to be something we can really
do.

All programmers believe their new code is stabler and better than their
old code, even when they know it isn't. They are interested in fixing
bug in the new code, not in the old code, etc...

So really unless we block all the features for F11 and focus on fixing
just QA bugs, I'm not sure what else we can do.

Dave.

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Old 11-18-2008, 05:41 AM
Thorsten Leemhuis
 
Default F11 Proposal: Stabilization

On 17.11.2008 23:16, Jon Masters wrote:
>

Various other communities (and distributions) have made a
point out of "stable" releases where the "big ticket" feature is
stabilization, so I think it would be a win to consider that.


I disagree: It seems to me a lot of the current Fedora users like the
"latest bells and whistles" style (like you called it in the mail that
started this discussion) I for one really like the steady stream of
kernel-updates, as that greatly improves hardware support over time! On
OpenSuse or Ubuntu you are often forced to run the development branches
when you need newer driver (just like it was in the early Fedora days
and in the RHL days).


Those users otoh that don't like the steady updates stream are likely
using other distributions already, as Fedora is doing it for quite a
while already.


So I fear that a lot of our current users will be unhappy if Fedora gets
closer to a updates style like those from opensuse or ubuntu. And at the
same time we likely don't attract that many new people, as most of the
opensuse and ubuntu users are likely glad with the distribution they use
right now. Further: we have a fame for shipping "the latest bells and
whistles". I suppose getting rid of that would take years...


Quoting from the mail that started this discussion:


I would personally much
prefer that stuff that used to work didn't break randomly, and that
stable Fedora updates wouldn't result in me wondering whether suspend,
graphics, SELinux, or some other feature that was working was going to
break today. This isn't actually a rant, more pointing out a necessity.


Agreed, but I tend to say we should work towards a solution where we can
ship the "latest bells and whistles" and nevertheless provide stability.


I for one think we need something like that:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-August/msg00025.html

The relevant part:

"""
I more and more think that we should consider to switch to a more
rolling release scheme with different usage levels. Roughly something
like the following maybe:



Level 1 -- rawhide, similar to how it is today (a bit more stable and
less breakage would be nice, but that's in the works already)


Level 2pre -- things that got tested in rawhide, that are still young,
but known to work well in rawhide; similar to what updates-testing for
F9 is today;


Level 2 -- things that worked fine for some time in 2pre; similar to
what F9 is today


Level 3pre -- things that worked fine for some time in 2

Level 3 -- things that worked fine for some time in 2pre


Level 3pre and 3 are like F8-updates-testing and F8, but with the
difference that everything has to be tested and shipped in level 2 (aka
F9) first.

"""

CU
knurd

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Old 11-18-2008, 07:33 AM
"David Nielsen"
 
Default F11 Proposal: Stabilization

2008/11/17 Jon Masters <jonathan@jonmasters.org>

Yo,



Can I make a proposal for a major theme for an upcoming Fedora (whether

F11 or F12): Stabilization.



Rather than the latest bells and whistles, I would personally much

prefer that stuff that used to work didn't break randomly, and that

stable Fedora updates wouldn't result in me wondering whether suspend,

graphics, SELinux, or some other feature that was working was going to

break today. This isn't actually a rant, more pointing out a necessity.
That would essencially rely on piling up code for 6 months considering we can't do anything but backport fixes. Imagine opening the floodgates for F12 then, 6 months of new code plus whatever comes in that cycle. Also imagine the userbase we will lose by not providing the latest GNOME, kernel, X as well, people really do care that their new hardware is supported or that we ship the latest OpenOffice.


What we really desperately need though is more automation in our bugreporting, we need something like apport to catch crashers earlier, get developers the information required to fix them without spending time repeating instructions and increasing the feedback loop unneededly. Yes we need to do better, but better is not achieved by ceasing development. Automatic gathering of SELinux failures is also possible, we need to make it happen, the sooner then better.


If we can find people willing to work on suspend, starting by writing up a good guide for users on the wiki on how to gather the information needed would be great. I primarily haven't filed suspend bugs because I directly expect it not to work from experience, I assume there is a lot of work to be done. Tell me where to start and I will test all my machines for suspend.


- David

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