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Old 11-12-2008, 11:42 AM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default Proposal: Rolling Release

On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 09:33 -0300, Horst H. von Brand wrote:
> Ralf Corsepius <rc040203@freenet.de> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 12:51 -0600, Rex Dieter wrote:
> > > Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 12:34 -0600, Rex Dieter wrote:
> > > >> Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > >
> > > >> <sarcasm>
> > > >> Who really needs all that fedora infrastructure, peer/package review,
> > > >> qa/testing, anyway. Much easier to skip all that.
> > > >> </sarcasm>
> > >
> > > > Well, ... if the fedora infrastructure was really serving contributors,
> > > > if peer/package reviews were functional, if testing was functional, then
> > > > this all would not be an issue.
> > >
> > > > The unpleasant truth is: It isn't.
> > >
> > > Standard response: how exactly isn't it?
> >
> > Let me pick just 2 examples:
>
> > * infrastructure: Fedora's infrastructure in first place mean struggling
> > with a zoo of more or less arguable processes/work-flows (freezes, FTBP,
> > wikis ...), a zoo of more or less functional tools (bugzilla, FAS,
> > packagedb, koji, bodhi, ...) and a zoo of bureaucracy they are
> > implementing.
>
> How exactly do you propose getting rid of that and _get the work done_?
One step would have been rel-eng not only branch in CVS, but also to
branch the repos, ....

Many hundred of bugs are waiting for Fedora's infrastructure team to
look into ...

> Complex work requires coordination. Get over it.

> > * testing: The parties testing a contributed package in first place is
> > the package's upstream, the packager and this package's end-users.
> > Fedora only contributes to testing a package insofar, as having a
> > package in Fedora widens the "potential user-base" of a package.
>
> Dead wrong. Upstream can only test i /their/ environment, not as part of
> Fedora.
And, where is the problem?

Are you seriously telling us Fedora's testing group was testing all the
packages in Fedora? They might be testing some very limited set of
packages but claiming they were testing more than this is simply
laughable.

> > > How exactly do you propose to make it better?
> > I guess you should know my answers :-)
>
> Humor us.
I will tell you on PM.

> > Points to getting started with would be
> > * "getting rid of the freezes"
>
> Impossible. If you want to ship something halfway tested, you need to stop
> the firehose of updates and concentrate on fixing.
Rubbish - If Fedora wants their upcoming releases tested, they need to release them for _testing_.

> > * "getting rid of the update delays"
>
> What do you mean?
Waiting weeks ans months for some Fedora deity to lean down to push a
package into the repos.

> > * improve the tools contributors are forced to use.
>
> Help out it that then.
It's rel-eng who pushed them onto comtributors. Shall they do their job.


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Old 11-12-2008, 03:46 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Proposal: Rolling Release

Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:

On 11.11.2008 22:42, Jesse Keating wrote:

On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 15:23 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
Which repos have a chance to rebuild against new fedora libraries
before they are publicly available so a user updating with both
enabled won't experience conflicts?

Every repo. Our build roots are public and static repo locations are
updated hourly with their contents. It's all public, anybody in the
would can access it.


As someone that takes care of a 3rd party repo I can mostly agree to
this statement from Jesse. But there is one important thing that is not
really foreseeable for the public: Pushes to the stable or testing
updates repos.


They just happen suddenly out of the blue and I as 3rd party repo
manager have no real chance to do push at exactly the same time. All a
3rd party repo manager can do is to watch fedora-announce-list closely
and push packages that have dependencies on specific Fedora packages
(xine-lib-extras-nonfree, qmmp-plugins-freeworld, all kmods, some
others) once he sees that Fedora did the push.


That is one of the big problems. Another one: Dependency problems due to
mirror lags afaik confuse yum (at least on F8 and F9). Details can be
found here:

http://www.redhat.com/archives/rhl-devel-list/2008-August/msg00041.html


Thank you! That's exactly the point of view that needs to be emphasized
here, both with respect to the people trying to cooperate with the
fedora distribution and the users who are affected.


Every time I try to point out the need for 3rd party add-ons here, the
discussion degenerates into useless rationalization as to why the entire
universe can't live in the fedora repository. But it doesn't matter why.
The fact is that it doesn't, never will, and it would be a bad idea for
everyone to rely on a single source for their critical applications
even if they could. We just need an understanding that people will
always need additional software and they need it to not break when
updates are pushed out - and if that can't be fixed, next best would be
a way to back out the breakage or run old/new in parallel while fixing
compatibility.


--
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lesmikesell@gmail


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Old 11-12-2008, 03:51 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Proposal: Rolling Release

On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:
>- and if that can't be fixed, next best would be a way to back out the
> breakage or run old/new in parallel while fixing compatibility.

yum allowdowngrade plugin doesn't do what you need?

-jef

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Old 11-12-2008, 03:58 PM
"Muayyad AlSadi"
 
Default Proposal: Rolling Release

I'm aware of rss feeds in
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/f10/testing, but I ask for
more

let's say I'm a 3rd party repo maintainer and I maintain a package
which depends on xulrunner like let's say mplayer-plugin or something
like that

can we has a per-package feeds (regardless of version)
so I can subscript to the rss feed of the packages I need and I watch
them being pushed from pending to testing to stable

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Old 11-12-2008, 04:06 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Proposal: Rolling Release

On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 18:58 +0200, Muayyad AlSadi wrote:
>
> can we has a per-package feeds (regardless of version)
> so I can subscript to the rss feed of the packages I need and I watch
> them being pushed from pending to testing to stable

In theory you can get rss feeds out of koji itself. But you may have to
filter that feed into the packages you care about.

I haven't played much with the koji rss feeding in a while.

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Old 11-12-2008, 04:37 PM
James Antill
 
Default Proposal: Rolling Release

On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 07:51 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:
> >- and if that can't be fixed, next best would be a way to back out the
> > breakage or run old/new in parallel while fixing compatibility.
>
> yum allowdowngrade plugin doesn't do what you need?

It doesn't work on any recent yum ... it's on the TODO list to fix it
for soon after Fedora 10 is released though (maybe for the zero day we
are planning, maybe the one after that).

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Fedora

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Old 11-12-2008, 04:37 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Proposal: Rolling Release

Jeff Spaleta wrote:

On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:

- and if that can't be fixed, next best would be a way to back out the
breakage or run old/new in parallel while fixing compatibility.


yum allowdowngrade plugin doesn't do what you need?



It might if I knew when and how to use it. Would that be obvious if
some 3rd party or local program(s) no longer worked some time after an
update?


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Old 11-12-2008, 04:44 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Proposal: Rolling Release

On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:
> It might if I knew when and how to use it. Would that be obvious if some
> 3rd party or local program(s) no longer worked some time after an update?

How does anyone with a niche need know about the existence of any
capability in our software collection that is not installed by
default? That's a deep question. Far deeper than I think you are
prepared to discuss.

-jef

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Old 11-12-2008, 04:44 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Proposal: Rolling Release

On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:
> It might if I knew when and how to use it. Would that be obvious if some
> 3rd party or local program(s) no longer worked some time after an update?

How does anyone with a niche need know about the existence of any
capability in our software collection that is not installed by
default? That's a deep question. Far deeper than I think you are
prepared to discuss.

-jef

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Old 11-12-2008, 04:44 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Proposal: Rolling Release

On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:
> It might if I knew when and how to use it. Would that be obvious if some
> 3rd party or local program(s) no longer worked some time after an update?

How does anyone with a niche need know about the existence of any
capability in our software collection that is not installed by
default? That's a deep question. Far deeper than I think you are
prepared to discuss.

-jef

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