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Old 11-11-2008, 02:39 PM
Jindrich Novy
 
Default db-compat

Hi,

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 11:03:44AM +0100, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 6:02 AM, Jon Masters <jonathan@jonmasters.org> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > It would seem we're no longer shipping libdb-4.1.so, whereas we do have
> > 4.2, 4.3, and 4.5 in that db4 compatibility package. I wound up just
> > stealing the binary from an older RPM and copying it in place.
> >
> > Anyway, software like Xilinx's ISE/EDK would like it back
> >
> > Jon.
>
> Jindrich Novy, can you package it for us, please ?
> Xilinx ISE/EDK is also an important tool for me

not a problem. I needed to change the compat-db structure anyway to be
easily extendable for older BDBs. Actually the current rawhide
compat-db is just a dummy package containing only Requires to
compat-db45 and compat-db46. It doesn't seem to be too hard to add
compat-db41, 42 and 43 subpackages. But I will let the main compat-db
be dependent on the 4.5 and 4.6 BDBs only, so that the older
compat-dbs would need to be installed/required separately.

HTH,
Jindrich

>
> Chitlesh

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Old 11-11-2008, 02:42 PM
Rich Megginson
 
Default db-compat

Jindrich Novy wrote:

Hi,

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 11:03:44AM +0100, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:


On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 6:02 AM, Jon Masters <jonathan@jonmasters.org> wrote:


Hi,

It would seem we're no longer shipping libdb-4.1.so, whereas we do have
4.2, 4.3, and 4.5 in that db4 compatibility package. I wound up just
stealing the binary from an older RPM and copying it in place.

Anyway, software like Xilinx's ISE/EDK would like it back

Jon.


Jindrich Novy, can you package it for us, please ?
Xilinx ISE/EDK is also an important tool for me



not a problem. I needed to change the compat-db structure anyway to be
easily extendable for older BDBs. Actually the current rawhide
compat-db is just a dummy package containing only Requires to
compat-db45 and compat-db46. It doesn't seem to be too hard to add
compat-db41, 42 and 43 subpackages. But I will let the main compat-db
be dependent on the 4.5 and 4.6 BDBs only, so that the older
compat-dbs would need to be installed/required separately.

Would it be possible to also have a compat-db-devel package that
includes the db.h from the older releases? Or does this sort of defeat
the purpose of "compat"?

HTH,
Jindrich



Chitlesh






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Old 11-11-2008, 03:01 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default db-compat

Jon Masters (jonathan@jonmasters.org) said:
> > > db-4.1 was last the system DB library in RHEL 3/FC1.
>
> What's the point of a "compat" library if not to support software built
> for such systems? We might argue that we only care about F8/F9 and so
> start removing other "old" compat libraries, but that's hardly useful.

It depends on both the library, and the release they're referring to.

For example, db-4.3 was the DB library in FC6 and RHEL 5. That is
probably a more reasonable compat library to maintain for a longer
period than the db-4.5 that was shipped in Fedora 7 but no RHEL
release.

But including all compat for all prior releases indefinitely is
a losing proposition - the db3/db2 from RHEL 2.1 would be an
example here. Or, to pick a random library from Fedora, we don't
carry old versions of directfb indefinitely, if at all.

Bill

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Old 11-13-2008, 05:15 PM
Jon Masters
 
Default db-compat

On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 10:18 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Le mardi 11 novembre 2008 Ã* 00:16 -0500, Jon Masters a écrit :
> > On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 00:23 +0200, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
>
> > > > db-4.1 was last the system DB library in RHEL 3/FC1.
> >
> > What's the point of a "compat" library if not to support software built
> > for such systems?

> Compat libraries are here to help transitions within the repository

Wow. That's a complete definition of what I take as the meaning of
"compatibility". So it's only compatibility with ourselves that we care
about now then? Cool! Let's throw out any libraries not used in Fedora,
and while we're at it, let's throw out any symbols those libraries
provide that we're not using - after all, we don't need them

> — as long as they're available there's the risk someone adds a new
> package depending on them in the repo, making the transition go
> backwards

I love this kind of argument being used in Free Software communities. It
gives me the warm and fuzzies. I'm strongly against smoking too, but I'm
not going to ban the sale of cigarettes. I (strangely) take the view
that people can know for themselves what is good and bad for them. I
think most people know if they're (intentionally) using a compat lib.

> Thus compat libraries represent a grace period for everyone to
> transition gracefully. That some ISVs do not want to understand this and
> wait till the grace period is over to realise they need to do some work
> is something you should take with those ISVs. Fedora/RHEL provided a
> grace period, they chose not to use it.

To be fair, the entire world doesn't move at the same pace as a
distribution like Fedora. Yes, maybe it should, but maybe we shouldn't
make it overly difficult for software that works just fine to be used.
If keeping userspace compatibility isn't too difficult, it's generally
something Linux has always favored doing.

> It's the same problem as users wanting to block xorg releases till
> nvidia supported the new APIs, while nvidia waits for new releases to be
> official to start working on those APIs.

Er, no it's not. This has no semblance of a resemblance to that
situation - we're talking purely about an optional compat lib.

> Bad service from ISVs that do proprietary software, nothing less.

Cool. Let's blame the non-Free sofrware ISVs at every turn!

(sorry, overly sarky email...nothing personal, just in that kind of
mood, probably too much decaf coffee...)

Jon.



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Old 11-13-2008, 05:18 PM
Jon Masters
 
Default db-compat

On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 15:23 +0200, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
> Nicolas Mailhot wrote:

> > Bad service from ISVs that do proprietary software, nothing less.
> >
> That is correct. Try convincing the hardware industry to not use the
> tools from the above vendors, in the context where there are only 3
> major players and 2 of them have their own agenda.

Yeah. I'd love to use a Free (or even a free) software place and route
or synthesis tool for VHDL, but the reality is that these companies
still believe that making information available to do that will
materially hurt them. So, like you, I'm forced to rely upon an abstract
notion of "userspace compatibility". Crazy idea, I know

Jon.


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Old 11-13-2008, 05:20 PM
Nicolas Mailhot
 
Default db-compat

Le jeudi 13 novembre 2008 à 13:15 -0500, Jon Masters a écrit :

> > Bad service from ISVs that do proprietary software, nothing less.
>
> Cool. Let's blame the non-Free sofrware ISVs at every turn!
>
> (sorry, overly sarky email...nothing personal, just in that kind of
> mood, probably too much decaf coffee...)

For the record, I spent 4 years of my life working at a Linux ISV.

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Old 11-14-2008, 02:31 AM
Jon Masters
 
Default db-compat

On Thu, 2008-11-13 at 19:20 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Le jeudi 13 novembre 2008 à 13:15 -0500, Jon Masters a écrit :
>
> > > Bad service from ISVs that do proprietary software, nothing less.
> >
> > Cool. Let's blame the non-Free sofrware ISVs at every turn!
> >
> > (sorry, overly sarky email...nothing personal, just in that kind of
> > mood, probably too much decaf coffee...)
>
> For the record, I spent 4 years of my life working at a Linux ISV.

Yeah. I get it. Still, I wonder if there's a need for a policy on this
stuff - or if in fact, there is one and I don't know about it

Jon.



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