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Old 11-08-2008, 03:50 PM
Stu Tomlinson
 
Default Pidgin (was FESCo Meeting Summary for 2008-11-05)

On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 21:35 -0500, Paul Wouters wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Nov 2008, Stu Tomlinson wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Paul Wouters <paul@xelerance.com> wrote:
> >> And I do hate pidgin with a vengance.
> >
> > May I ask why?
>
> I've CC:ed the fedora list, though you gave me a private reply, because I
> thought the large list of bugs might be useful to someone. Hope that's okay.

Fine, but I think bugzilla is a better place for bugs to be reported.

> - It is the 2nd largest memory consuming application running (after firefox)
> using up 10% of my total memory:
> 6698 paul 20 0 843m 96m 15m S 0.0 9.6 16:43.17 pidgin
> And I am not a super consumer, only 25 friends and 5 irc channels online now.

That's certainly unacceptable. There have been some reports of high
memory utilization but I have been unable to reproduce such high numbers
or track down any significant leaks recently. It is possible this is
caused by 3rd party plugins, I'd ask you to try disabling OTR to see if
it improves things but I suspect you don't want to do that What other
plugins do you use?

For comparison this is my current utilization:
9315 stu 20 0 164m 52m 21m S 0 2.6 84:29.60 pidgin

That's with 17 accounts online on various protocols, ~200 buddies, 4
chat channels and 6 IM conversations open, and it's been running for 14
days.

> - It is prone to crashes and freezes (once every couple of days)

Have you reported bugs with backtraces for these?

> - Somewhere it lost "reconnect all accounts", and I need to click reconnect per
> account.

This should not be necessary, as accounts should automatically reconnect
without user intervention, unless they disconnected for reasons Pidgin
determines are not automatically resolvable (such as incorrect
password). What sort of disconnection results in the accounts being in
this state?

> - Somewhere it lost the ability to be clever and allow typing when the 'focus'
> was on the receiving part of a conversation window. Now that typing is lost
> until you click on the small input box.

I can't reproduce that here.

> - Somewhere between gaim-beta 2.0 and pidgin it lost all concepts of
> workspaces, resulting in my buddy list being unmovable from the screen
> I started from (often with my conversation screen stuck in another workspace)
> This results in some really crappy things. If my buddy list is in workspace 1
> and I am working in worspace 2, and someone initiates a talk this happens. If
> I then later want to talk to someone else, i have to double flip through
> workspaces (or move one of the windows manually to the other workspace).
> The old gaim I could just left click the top icon twice to move the buddy list
> from one workspace to the other.

That is indeed annoying - unfortunately it is not something that changed
in Pidgin, but something that changed in the DE or WM or something else.
I'll try to dig into what it is and see if we can work around it in
Pidgin.

> - Leaves a mess in /tmp/

What sort of mess? I am not aware of anything Pidgin puts in /tmp - Gaim
used to a long time ago before we switched to using DBUS for remote
control.

> - Combined user accounts lead to strange things due to pidgin seemingly picking
> randomly whch user account to use, which causes problems with OTR.

Pidgin picks the most 'available' buddy within a contact to send an IM,
if buddies are determined to be equally available, the 1st one listed in
the expanded contact is used. Drag and drop can be used to re-arrange
them.

> - The file transfer function is completely unreliable and often fails silently,
> eg the other end does not even see you're trying to send them a file.

File transfer functionality varies by protocol, and also depends on what
client the other end is using. I agree it is not perfect. Can you be
more specific about what protocol(s) you see this on?

> - Buddylist window icon at the bottom turns blue ("attention") grabbing when
> some event has fixed itself, leaving me to wonder what requires my attention.

This sounds like a bug - did you file a bug?

> - When i have more tabs open then fit in the window, and I'm at the right most
> tab, and I got a new mesage in a tab that's scrolled off screen at the left,
> I can only go there by going through the tabs, causing them to lose the 'unread'
> state.

You can right click on any tab to see a list of all tabs and jump direct
to the one you want.

> - Once every couple of months, some accounts turns to "unvisible" (might be an
> MSN/AIM protocol thing, not something pidgin can help)

I haven't heard of this happening - did you file a bug?

> - irc handling of nicknames when briefly bouncing is bad. You'll fight with your
> own old nick, and with freenode you then lose the ability to privmsg.
> (not sure if that is fixiable in a client, not really pidgin's fault probably)

There is a plugin in the purple plugin pack called 'IRC Helper' that can
manage ghosting of nicks and authenticating to Nickserv
(yum install purple-plugin_pack)

Regards,


Stu.

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Old 11-08-2008, 04:16 PM
"Peter Lemenkov"
 
Default Pidgin (was FESCo Meeting Summary for 2008-11-05)

2008/11/8, Stu Tomlinson <stu@nosnilmot.com>:
> > - It is the 2nd largest memory consuming application running (after firefox)
> > using up 10% of my total memory:
> > 6698 paul 20 0 843m 96m 15m S 0.0 9.6 16:43.17 pidgin
> > And I am not a super consumer, only 25 friends and 5 irc channels online now.

Oh come on! It's just a GTK applications (with, as usual, poor desing,
which in turn leads to high memory usage due to poor allocators,
complex internal structure, which leads to bugs which cannot be fixed
even by maintainers months and years, and so on).

Take a look - this is a Firefox with switched off memory cache and 8
opened tabs.

26819 petro 20 0 449m 299m 21m S 0.3 59.7 6:32.90 firefox

If we'll start complaining about memory consumption of GTK-based
monsters we'll spend all free time in useless conversations.

You shoud try to use some better alternatives. Try Psi, for example.
In any case there are tons of better XMPP clients (you're not using
proprietary protocols like oscar/msn/aim/etc, are you?). In case of
Firefox we don't have such obvious variants to switch to (mainly due
to Firefox extensions - real killer feature of this memory hungry
beast).

BTW does someone knows about those unlucky ISVs, who based significant
part of their business on GTK?
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Old 11-08-2008, 05:39 PM
Paul Wouters
 
Default Pidgin (was FESCo Meeting Summary for 2008-11-05)

On Sat, 8 Nov 2008, Peter Lemenkov wrote:


> 6698 paul 20 0 843m 96m 15m S 0.0 9.6 16:43.17 pidgin
> And I am not a super consumer, only 25 friends and 5 irc channels online now.


Oh come on! It's just a GTK applications (with, as usual, poor desing,
which in turn leads to high memory usage due to poor allocators,
complex internal structure, which leads to bugs which cannot be fixed
even by maintainers months and years, and so on).


I'm complaining because my machine actually runs out of memory after a
few weeks :P (Yes, my home desktop only has 1GB of RAM
And yes, restarting firefox tends to help :P


You shoud try to use some better alternatives. Try Psi, for example.
In any case there are tons of better XMPP clients (you're not using
proprietary protocols like oscar/msn/aim/etc, are you?).


Apparently unlike you, I have friends So yes, although I prefer XMPP,
I also talk to people using proprietary evil central servers (hence my
insistence on needing OTR).

Paul

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Old 11-08-2008, 07:57 PM
"Peter Lemenkov"
 
Default Pidgin (was FESCo Meeting Summary for 2008-11-05)

2008/11/8, Paul Wouters <paul@xelerance.com>:
> > You shoud try to use some better alternatives. Try Psi, for example.
> > In any case there are tons of better XMPP clients (you're not using
> > proprietary protocols like oscar/msn/aim/etc, are you?).
> >
>
> Apparently unlike you, I have friends So yes, although I prefer XMPP,
> I also talk to people using proprietary evil central servers (hence my
> insistence on needing OTR).

Heh
Two common geek's mistakes:

* Friends == proprietary IM system's contacts
* 99% of people using proprietary IM systems


In any case this is offtopic. Nevertheless, since 99% posts in recent
100+ threads in fedora-devel are also offtopic (weren't tightly
associated with fedora development), does it still matters?
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Old 11-08-2008, 08:20 PM
Manuel Wolfshant
 
Default Pidgin (was FESCo Meeting Summary for 2008-11-05)

- Somewhere it lost "reconnect all accounts", and I need to click reconnect per
account.



This should not be necessary, as accounts should automatically reconnect
without user intervention, unless they disconnected for reasons Pidgin
determines are not automatically resolvable (such as incorrect
password). What sort of disconnection results in the accounts being in
this state?

happened to me, too. I am constantly connected to gtalk, YM and ICQ and
sometimes I am simply disconnected and not reconnected to any of them
(and it is for sure not a local network problem, as anything else but
pidgin works ). However I am almost sure that I haven't seen this
problem since upgrading to 2.5.2




- Leaves a mess in /tmp/



What sort of mess? I am not aware of anything Pidgin puts in /tmp - Gaim
used to a long time ago before we switched to using DBUS for remote
control.


I haven't seen anything left by pidgin in /tmp either...



- The file transfer function is completely unreliable and often fails silently,
eg the other end does not even see you're trying to send them a file.



File transfer functionality varies by protocol, and also depends on what
client the other end is using. I agree it is not perfect. Can you be
more specific about what protocol(s) you see this on?



I have huge problems with transfers via YM. I can understand that I
cannot see the photos shared by people using the oficial YM client (the
"share photos" option), but file transfers sometimes work, sometimes
don't. I have been unable to find a repetitive pattern. In the beginning
I thought it's related to me being behind a NAT. Then I thought it's my
firewall. But I was surprised to see that transfers with other pidgin
users work (more often than not). And after a while I realized that even
Windows people can send me files... sometimes. Even when both me and my
conversation partner are NATed. But the big problem is "sometimes".
Bottom line, I can only assume it's a matter of incompatibility among
protocols and that the success of the transfer is dependent on the YM
version used by the Windows user who attempts to send me the file.



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Old 11-10-2008, 12:16 PM
Matej Cepl
 
Default Pidgin (was FESCo Meeting Summary for 2008-11-05)

On 2008-11-08, 18:39 GMT, Paul Wouters wrote:
> Apparently unlike you, I have friends So yes, although
> I prefer XMPP, I also talk to people using proprietary evil
> central servers (hence my insistence on needing OTR).

Jabber transports?

Matěj

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Old 11-11-2008, 03:44 AM
Paul Wouters
 
Default Pidgin (was FESCo Meeting Summary for 2008-11-05)

On Sat, 8 Nov 2008, Stu Tomlinson wrote:

> > I've CC:ed the fedora list, though you gave me a private reply, because I
> > thought the large list of bugs might be useful to someone. Hope that's okay.
>
> Fine, but I think bugzilla is a better place for bugs to be reported.

Did you mean fedora bugzilla or a pidgin one?

> > - It is the 2nd largest memory consuming application running (after firefox)
> > using up 10% of my total memory:
> > 6698 paul 20 0 843m 96m 15m S 0.0 9.6 16:43.17 pidgin
> > And I am not a super consumer, only 25 friends and 5 irc channels online now.
>
> That's certainly unacceptable. There have been some reports of high
> memory utilization but I have been unable to reproduce such high numbers
> or track down any significant leaks recently. It is possible this is
> caused by 3rd party plugins, I'd ask you to try disabling OTR to see if
> it improves things but I suspect you don't want to do that What other
> plugins do you use?

Whatever comes with a stock install, and otr. Is there anyway pidgin can track
memory usage of its modules?

> > - It is prone to crashes and freezes (once every couple of days)
>
> Have you reported bugs with backtraces for these?

No, I will see about getting pidgin to core dump and get backtraces for you.

> > - Somewhere it lost "reconnect all accounts", and I need to click reconnect per
> > account.
>
> This should not be necessary, as accounts should automatically reconnect
> without user intervention, unless they disconnected for reasons Pidgin
> determines are not automatically resolvable (such as incorrect
> password). What sort of disconnection results in the accounts being in
> this state?

I don't know. At times it just appears at the bottom of the buddy list window.

> > - Somewhere it lost the ability to be clever and allow typing when the 'focus'
> > was on the receiving part of a conversation window. Now that typing is lost
> > until you click on the small input box.
>
> I can't reproduce that here.

I just tried to do it again, and could not reprpduce it either. I'll keep track
of it and see if I run into it again.

[workspaces]

> That is indeed annoying - unfortunately it is not something that changed
> in Pidgin, but something that changed in the DE or WM or something else.
> I'll try to dig into what it is and see if we can work around it in
> Pidgin.

Thanks!

> > - Leaves a mess in /tmp/
>
> What sort of mess? I am not aware of anything Pidgin puts in /tmp - Gaim
> used to a long time ago before we switched to using DBUS for remote
> control.

Seems related to getting notifications about new mail on MSN accounts,
for example /tmp/purpleL3Q6HU contains:
temp files contain:

<html>
<head>
<noscript>
<meta http-equiv="Refresh" content="0; url=http://www.hotmail.com">
</noscript>
</head>

<body onload="document.pform.submit(); ">
<form name="pform" action="https://login.live.com/ppsecure/md5auth.srf?lc=1033"
method="POST">

<input type="hidden" name="mode" value="ttl">
<input type="hidden" name="login" value="letoams@hotmail.com">
<input type="hidden" name="username" value="letoams@hotmail.com">

[...]

> > - Combined user accounts lead to strange things due to pidgin seemingly picking
> > randomly whch user account to use, which causes problems with OTR.
>
> Pidgin picks the most 'available' buddy within a contact to send an IM,
> if buddies are determined to be equally available, the 1st one listed in
> the expanded contact is used. Drag and drop can be used to re-arrange
> them.

That would lead to a lot of ping-ponging between accounts, if one person is
talking on two different protocols at once with two people.....
It is definately not ideal OTR. Not only because of the crypto, but also because
the Opportunistic Encryption reply cannot be "exempted" from the user input,
leading to accounts which are actually idle (and perhaps on a different physical
location) to appear as not-idle.

> > - The file transfer function is completely unreliable and often fails silently,
> > eg the other end does not even see you're trying to send them a file.
>
> File transfer functionality varies by protocol, and also depends on what
> client the other end is using. I agree it is not perfect. Can you be
> more specific about what protocol(s) you see this on?

That's hard to say, as I don't always know which account pidgin has chosen
while talking to someone. Most of my buddies have multiple protocols, so these
are all grouped by me in the buddy list.

> > - Buddylist window icon at the bottom turns blue ("attention") grabbing when
> > some event has fixed itself, leaving me to wonder what requires my attention.
>
> This sounds like a bug - did you file a bug?

No. I do try to file bugs regularly for things (and with my own software, try to
respond to them quickly), but I don't always have the time to do so.

> > - When i have more tabs open then fit in the window, and I'm at the right most
> > tab, and I got a new mesage in a tab that's scrolled off screen at the left,
> > I can only go there by going through the tabs, causing them to lose the 'unread'
> > state.
>
> You can right click on any tab to see a list of all tabs and jump direct
> to the one you want.

Okay. I didn't know about that one.

> > - Once every couple of months, some accounts turns to "unvisible" (might be an
> > MSN/AIM protocol thing, not something pidgin can help)
>
> I haven't heard of this happening - did you file a bug?

See above. It's vague and more likely to be a MSN interop issue when they change
something. I wouldn't be able to do more then file a very vague bug report.

> > - irc handling of nicknames when briefly bouncing is bad. You'll fight with your
> > own old nick, and with freenode you then lose the ability to privmsg.
> > (not sure if that is fixiable in a client, not really pidgin's fault probably)
>
> There is a plugin in the purple plugin pack called 'IRC Helper' that can
> manage ghosting of nicks and authenticating to Nickserv
> (yum install purple-plugin_pack)

Thanks, I just installed it.

Paul

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