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Old 10-29-2008, 08:56 AM
Patrice Dumas
 
Default Reasons to preseve X on tty7

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 09:45:15AM +0000, Richard Hughes wrote:
>
> I don't think it can work like that.
>
> 1. send a mail saying sendmail won't be on the default desktop install
> 2. heat hands on ensuing flames

This shown up to be controversial, so in the end someone has to decide.
But at least asking may bring in interesting issues and also help. There
is noise, of course, and bikesheding, but not only.

> The problem with fedora-devel-list is that the 0.01% of most technical
> users are there, most unable to understand that normal people don't use
> an smtp server or setup nfs.

But they are also the most able to do interesting proposals and help with
the code.

> If we include everything we've ever started by default in the future
> versions, and any of the latest cool new stuff, our boot times are going
> to get longer, and our base install bigger.
>
> Design by committee just doesn't work.

It is not design by commitee I am advocating, but using the resources
here to try to also please old timers and advanced users. In the end
somebody has to take decisions in an authoritative way, sure, but may be
more informed and have more support if community is asked in the process.
The flamewars will always be there, but additionally you can have a
better design and more participations if a consultation is done before
the fact.

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Old 10-29-2008, 09:06 AM
Patrice Dumas
 
Default Reasons to preseve X on tty7

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 11:08:13AM +0100, Hans de Goede wrote:
>
> Or rather not start it if it does not contain anything or does not exist,
> currently the script creates an empty /etc/exports if it does not exist
> to ensure that nfsd will start to serve no purpose what so ever (serving
> an emty /etc/exports is pretty useless), that really is the world upside
> down.

nfsd should never be started automatically. Is it the case? I think that
it is a packaging bug.

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Old 10-29-2008, 09:08 AM
Hans de Goede
 
Default Reasons to preseve X on tty7

Jeremy Sanders wrote:

Hans de Goede wrote:


So the idea is to patch all the initscripts which currently only get
started by default for NFS, to as the first thing in their start method
grep for nfs in /etc/fstab and if that is not found exit quietly without
doing anything further.


And this would break for people who are using autofs to mount nfs partition.


Then we need to also teach autofs to start these services on demand. Having all
the daemons on for the 1% of Linux users who use NFS (esp on things like
laptops) is not the answer. We are moving more and more to a system where Linux
adjusts dynamically to its environment (think NetworkManager, think device hot
plugging, etc.)



You also need to start nfsd if /etc/exports contains something.


Or rather not start it if it does not contain anything or does not exist,
currently the script creates an empty /etc/exports if it does not exist to
ensure that nfsd will start to serve no purpose what so ever (serving an emty
/etc/exports is pretty useless), that really is the world upside down.


Regards,

Hans

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Old 10-29-2008, 09:18 AM
Richard Hughes
 
Default Reasons to preseve X on tty7

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 09:54 +0000, Jeremy Sanders wrote:
> And this would break for people who are using autofs to mount nfs
> partition.
> You also need to start nfsd if /etc/exports contains something.

Classic example of what I said earlier. What percentage of people are
using NFS on their machine right now? 0.5% - even less?

If you're setting up NFS on your machine, then you're quite capable of
turning a service on. There's no need for it to be on by default.

Richard.


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Old 10-29-2008, 09:19 AM
Hans de Goede
 
Default Reasons to preseve X on tty7

Patrice Dumas wrote:

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 11:08:13AM +0100, Hans de Goede wrote:
Or rather not start it if it does not contain anything or does not exist,
currently the script creates an empty /etc/exports if it does not exist
to ensure that nfsd will start to serve no purpose what so ever (serving
an emty /etc/exports is pretty useless), that really is the world upside
down.


nfsd should never be started automatically. Is it the case? I think that
it is a packaging bug.



Actually I just checked again and no it does not, the initscript file is named
poorly though it is named nfs not nfsd which confused me into thinking that it
gets started as part of other daemons needed for nfs client use.


Regards,

Hans

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Old 10-29-2008, 09:20 AM
Gerd Hoffmann
 
Default Reasons to preseve X on tty7

Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> While I respect your opinions and experience I do think that the
> reasoning for this behavior change is good enough. I remember the
> first time I was told how to switch to tty1 some 7-8 years ago.
> Immediately after switching to tty1 my curiosity boosted up and I
> tried all the combinations ctrl+alt+F2 through ctrl+alt+F12. I am
> sure many of us went through a similar experience.

Yep, but usually you try that *once* and not *each time* you wanna have
a text console.

For me usually it is like this:

* Oops, something busted in X11.
* Try to get a text console via Ctrl-Alt-F1, see if I can fix it up.
Then either:
* Log in, fix, switch back to X11
or:
* Ctrl-Alt-F1 has no effect. Damn. Reboot time.

cheers,
Gerd

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Old 10-29-2008, 09:23 AM
Jeremy Sanders
 
Default Reasons to preseve X on tty7

Hans de Goede wrote:

> Then we need to also teach autofs to start these services on demand.
> Having all the daemons on for the 1% of Linux users who use NFS (esp on
> things like laptops) is not the answer. We are moving more and more to a
> system where Linux adjusts dynamically to its environment (think
> NetworkManager, think device hot plugging, etc.)

Then please make sure you do this before making tiny optimisations.

I suspect it will be hard as autofs is partly in the kernel. You'd need to
ask an autofs expert whether this is possible without serious redesign.

I don't have a vanilla fedora install to verify, but isn't the nfs service
switched off in the default install anyway? I had to switch it on in my F8
kickstart files.

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Old 10-29-2008, 09:26 AM
Hans de Goede
 
Default Reasons to preseve X on tty7

Gerd Hoffmann wrote:

Orcan Ogetbil wrote:

While I respect your opinions and experience I do think that the
reasoning for this behavior change is good enough. I remember the
first time I was told how to switch to tty1 some 7-8 years ago.
Immediately after switching to tty1 my curiosity boosted up and I
tried all the combinations ctrl+alt+F2 through ctrl+alt+F12. I am
sure many of us went through a similar experience.


Yep, but usually you try that *once* and not *each time* you wanna have
a text console.

For me usually it is like this:

* Oops, something busted in X11.
* Try to get a text console via Ctrl-Alt-F1, see if I can fix it up.
Then either:
* Log in, fix, switch back to X11
or:
* Ctrl-Alt-F1 has no effect. Damn. Reboot time.



/me must resist to make a comment about the difference between humans and
animals being the capability to adapt to a changing environment.


There I resisted

Regards,

Hans

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Old 10-29-2008, 09:27 AM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default Reasons to preseve X on tty7

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 09:54 +0000, Jeremy Sanders wrote:
> Hans de Goede wrote:
>
> > So the idea is to patch all the initscripts which currently only get
> > started by default for NFS, to as the first thing in their start method
> > grep for nfs in /etc/fstab and if that is not found exit quietly without
> > doing anything further.
>
> And this would break for people who are using autofs to mount nfs partition.
> You also need to start nfsd if /etc/exports contains something.
Exactly ... another silly proposal.


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Old 10-29-2008, 09:33 AM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default Reasons to preseve X on tty7

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 10:23 +0000, Jeremy Sanders wrote:
> Hans de Goede wrote:
>
> > Then we need to also teach autofs to start these services on demand.
> > Having all the daemons on for the 1% of Linux users who use NFS (esp on
> > things like laptops) is not the answer. We are moving more and more to a
> > system where Linux adjusts dynamically to its environment (think
> > NetworkManager, think device hot plugging, etc.)
>
> Then please make sure you do this before making tiny optimisations.
>
> I suspect it will be hard as autofs is partly in the kernel. You'd need to
> ask an autofs expert whether this is possible without serious redesign.
IMO, the solution is to have bootup (network-) profiles to conditionally
configure "starting up" services depending upon what the user demanded
during boot up.





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