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Old 10-23-2008, 01:55 PM
"Tom "spot" Callaway"
 
Default R-devel going away

This email serves as an announcement that I plan to swallow up R-devel
into the base R package. Why?

* It is causing no end of user complaints. The typical R user expects to
be able to do a "CPAN" (really, I should say "CRAN") style package
install through the R interface:

install.packages("RSQLite")

This doesn't work unless you have R-devel installed. The average R user
is a professor or a student, and neither of them are going to
necessarily possess the necessary Linux/Fedora knowledge to be able to
understand why this doesn't work like the R documentation says it
should.

* The size of the R-devel is tiny, about 440K installed. It will not
bloat the main package to absorb the .h files and a .pc file into the
main package. There are no libraries in the R-devel package.

* The primary users of R-devel are R addon packages. They can continue
to BuildRequires: R-devel safely (hooray for Provides/Requires).

* libRmath (the R shared library) will still be a separate package.
libRmath-devel will still be a separate package. As far as I know,
nothing in Fedora uses libRmath, nor is libRmath-devel necessary for
building R addons.

Now, I recognize that this is a violation of the Fedora Packaging
Guidelines, and I've given a lot of thought to this over the last few
days, and technically, this is a reversal of my earlier stance (which is
to stick to the guidelines). However, I think this is a key
functionality that Fedora R users expect to just work, and I want to try
to make sure that they get the best R experience out of the box that
they can.

As Martyn Plummer pointed out:

There are currently 1533 packages/bundles on CRAN, not counting the
recommended packages that are already distributed with R. Of these
packages, 420 require to the R headers. Fedora only supplies RPMs for
9
of them.

I'm not entirely sure if I need FESCo or FPC approval to take this
action, if so, this is my notice of requesting it.

I'm also looking for feedback and comments, of course.

Thanks,

~spot (Fedora R maintainer)

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Old 10-23-2008, 02:27 PM
Matthew Miller
 
Default R-devel going away

On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 09:55:08AM -0400, Tom spot Callaway wrote:
> * It is causing no end of user complaints. The typical R user expects to
> be able to do a "CPAN" (really, I should say "CRAN") style package
> install through the R interface:
> install.packages("RSQLite")
> This doesn't work unless you have R-devel installed. The average R user
> is a professor or a student, and neither of them are going to
> necessarily possess the necessary Linux/Fedora knowledge to be able to
> understand why this doesn't work like the R documentation says it
> should.

Where do R packages installed this way go? I'd rather have people say "hey,
we're missing an R package" and then have that packaged up for Fedora, so we
can then later do a consistant install via kickstart. (Like perl modules,
they're generally relatively easy to package.)

--
Matthew Miller <mattdm@mattdm.org>
Senior Systems Architect
Cyberinfrastructure Labs
Computing & Information Technology
Harvard School of Engineering & Applied Sciences

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Old 10-23-2008, 02:30 PM
Pierre-Yves
 
Default R-devel going away

Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 09:55:08AM -0400, Tom spot Callaway wrote:

* It is causing no end of user complaints. The typical R user expects to
be able to do a "CPAN" (really, I should say "CRAN") style package
install through the R interface:
install.packages("RSQLite")
This doesn't work unless you have R-devel installed. The average R user
is a professor or a student, and neither of them are going to
necessarily possess the necessary Linux/Fedora knowledge to be able to
understand why this doesn't work like the R documentation says it
should.


Where do R packages installed this way go? I'd rather have people say "hey,
we're missing an R package" and then have that packaged up for Fedora, so we
can then later do a consistant install via kickstart. (Like perl modules,
they're generally relatively easy to package.)


Would the lake of packager be a suffisant answer ?

FYI:
http://rpms.famillecollet.com/rpmphp/rpm.php?type=R

Regards,

Pierre


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Old 10-23-2008, 02:34 PM
Enrico Scholz
 
Default R-devel going away

"Tom "spot" Callaway"
<tcallawa-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> writes:

> This email serves as an announcement that I plan to swallow up R-devel
> into the base R package. Why?

Better solutions:

* add it to comps.xml
* move 'R' to R-core, and add 'R' which depends on 'R-core' + 'R-devel'


> * The size of the R-devel is tiny, about 440K installed.

You miss its dependencies:

bzip2-devel
gcc-c++
gcc-gfortran
libICE-devel
libSM-devel
libX11-devel
libXmu-devel
libXt-devel
libjpeg-devel
libpng-devel
ncurses-devel
pkgconfig
readline-devel
tcl-devel
tetex-latex
texinfo
tk-devel



Enrico

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Old 10-23-2008, 02:34 PM
Jason L Tibbitts III
 
Default R-devel going away

>>>>> "MM" == Matthew Miller <mattdm@mattdm.org> writes:

MM> Where do R packages installed this way go?

Into the installing user's home directory.

Honestly I don't mind either way; as an admin, I know that R-devel
needs to be installed for users to get full functionality. But I also
know that a C compiler needs to be installed, and so forth, and I
don't think that gcc should necessarily be in R's dependency chain.

- J<

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Old 10-23-2008, 02:42 PM
"Tom "spot" Callaway"
 
Default R-devel going away

On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 16:34 +0200, Enrico Scholz wrote:
> Better solutions:
>
> * add it to comps.xml
> * move 'R' to R-core, and add 'R' which depends on 'R-core' +
> 'R-devel'
>
>
> > * The size of the R-devel is tiny, about 440K installed.
>
> You miss its dependencies:
>
> bzip2-devel
> gcc-c++
> gcc-gfortran
> libICE-devel
> libSM-devel
> libX11-devel
> libXmu-devel
> libXt-devel
> libjpeg-devel
> libpng-devel
> ncurses-devel
> pkgconfig
> readline-devel
> tcl-devel
> tetex-latex
> texinfo
> tk-devel

These are very good points, thanks Enrico. What would people think about
doing the suggested R/R-core/R-devel split instead? Users would still be
able to get everything with yum install R, it would meet the guidelines,
and minimal installs with R can simply have R-core.

~spot

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Old 10-23-2008, 02:46 PM
Pierre-Yves
 
Default R-devel going away

Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:

These are very good points, thanks Enrico. What would people think about
doing the suggested R/R-core/R-devel split instead? Users would still be
able to get everything with yum install R, it would meet the guidelines,
and minimal installs with R can simply have R-core.


Sounds like a good idea to me


Pierre
~ pingou

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Old 10-23-2008, 02:50 PM
Hans de Goede
 
Default R-devel going away

Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:

On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 16:34 +0200, Enrico Scholz wrote:

Better solutions:

* add it to comps.xml
* move 'R' to R-core, and add 'R' which depends on 'R-core' +
'R-devel'



* The size of the R-devel is tiny, about 440K installed.

You miss its dependencies:

bzip2-devel
gcc-c++
gcc-gfortran
libICE-devel
libSM-devel
libX11-devel
libXmu-devel
libXt-devel
libjpeg-devel
libpng-devel
ncurses-devel
pkgconfig
readline-devel
tcl-devel
tetex-latex
texinfo
tk-devel


These are very good points, thanks Enrico. What would people think about
doing the suggested R/R-core/R-devel split instead? Users would still be
able to get everything with yum install R, it would meet the guidelines,
and minimal installs with R can simply have R-core.



+1

(esp after seeing the R-devel Requirements)

Regards,

Hans

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Old 10-23-2008, 06:22 PM
James Antill
 
Default R-devel going away

On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 10:42 -0400, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:

> > > * The size of the R-devel is tiny, about 440K installed.

Also, even without the deps.: yum list-installed-sizes *-devel

...440K is way past the 50% mark for the size of a *-devel package.

> These are very good points, thanks Enrico. What would people think about
> doing the suggested R/R-core/R-devel split instead? Users would still be
> able to get everything with yum install R, it would meet the guidelines,
> and minimal installs with R can simply have R-core.

Well it kinda fits the "people expect foo-core + additions" _assuming_
CRAN is a requirement, but really why don't we just package more of the
R modules so CRAN usage isn't a requirement?

--
James Antill <james@fedoraproject.org>
Fedora

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Old 10-23-2008, 06:41 PM
José Matos
 
Default R-devel going away

On Thursday 23 October 2008 19:22:07 James Antill wrote:
> *Well it kinda fits the "people expect foo-core + additions" _assuming_
> CRAN is a requirement, but really why don't we just package more of the
> R modules so CRAN usage isn't a requirement?

There are more than 1500 modules (the have been growing at an exponential rate
in the last years). So while we would like to see more R packages in Fedora in
are not even near to have a reasonable subset of R packaged.

So for the moment CRAN is really a requirement to use R in Fedora.

> --
> James Antill <james@fedoraproject.org>
> Fedora

--
José Abílio

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