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Old 10-19-2008, 07:32 PM
"Colin Walters"
 
Default None of the Above (was Sendmail still default?)

On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 3:26 PM, Karel Zak <kzak@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 11:37:16AM -0700, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
>> Anybody trying to argue for the politics of Exim/Postfix/Sendmail as
>> default choice is ignoring the reality...
>
> (+1)
>
> Good point, but don't forget that Fedora is pretty ambivalent
> distribution. It's a "desktop distribution" where some people want to
> disable non-X console and other people use postfix,

That's right - desktops are different from servers. Fedora's core
should be driven from the use cases, and where the use cases have
things in common, they're shared. Where they don't, they're not.

Specifically regarding an MTA, as I said before I understand there's
the "workstation" use case where you're say doing web development and
you want to install Apache or Tomcat or something locally and run
logwatch on it. We obviously will support that. But it doesn't make
sense for the default desktop OS to be sending you email about all the
junk going on under the hood.

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Old 10-19-2008, 07:42 PM
Arjan van de Ven
 
Default None of the Above (was Sendmail still default?)

On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:26:24 +0200
Karel Zak <kzak@redhat.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 11:37:16AM -0700, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> > Anybody trying to argue for the politics of Exim/Postfix/Sendmail as
> > default choice is ignoring the reality...
>
> (+1)
>
> Good point, but don't forget that Fedora is pretty ambivalent
> distribution. It's a "desktop distribution" where some people want to
> disable non-X console and other people use postfix, port packages to
> s390, maintain GFS2 stuff and Spacewalk -- and finally it should be a
> base for Red Hat Enterprise distribution :-)

I'm all in favor having any and all of those as options.
Really.
For the people who want to run a mail server, they absolutely should.
But those already have to significantly customize their OS already.
Installing a MTA of their choice as part of that is no big deal,
and probably entirely expected by those who really want to run a mail
server.

But I stand by: The default: none of the above.



--
Arjan van de Ven Intel Open Source Technology Centre
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Old 10-19-2008, 08:54 PM
Karel Zak
 
Default None of the Above (was Sendmail still default?)

On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 12:42:17PM -0700, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:26:24 +0200
> Karel Zak <kzak@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 11:37:16AM -0700, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> > > Anybody trying to argue for the politics of Exim/Postfix/Sendmail as
> > > default choice is ignoring the reality...
> >
> > (+1)
> >
> > Good point, but don't forget that Fedora is pretty ambivalent
> > distribution. It's a "desktop distribution" where some people want to
> > disable non-X console and other people use postfix, port packages to
> > s390, maintain GFS2 stuff and Spacewalk -- and finally it should be a
> > base for Red Hat Enterprise distribution :-)
>
> I'm all in favor having any and all of those as options.
> Really.
> For the people who want to run a mail server, they absolutely should.
> But those already have to significantly customize their OS already.
> Installing a MTA of their choice as part of that is no big deal,
> and probably entirely expected by those who really want to run a mail
> server.
>
> But I stand by: The default: none of the above.

I agree. Definitely. (I use esmtp(1) for years).

Karel

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Old 10-20-2008, 01:47 AM
seth vidal
 
Default None of the Above (was Sendmail still default?)

On Sun, 2008-10-19 at 15:32 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
> But it doesn't make
> sense for the default desktop OS to be sending you email about all the
> junk going on under the hood.


I understand where you are coming from but I have to say the above
statement is, imo, fundamentally wrong.

-sv


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Old 10-20-2008, 01:48 AM
James Antill
 
Default None of the Above (was Sendmail still default?)

On Sun, 2008-10-19 at 11:37 -0700, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> Forget about Sendmail. Or Exim. Or Postfix as default install.
>
> Really.
>
> There's two types of people using fedora:
> 1) People who don't run a mail server

I think you meant to add _incoming_ in there, having mail that's
generated on the local machine go somewhere _reliably_ is a basic
feature required by all users.

> For 1), all three are wrong. Really. All you really need is some
> minimalist commandline compatible thing that just forwards to some
> smart host (or maybe does only local delivery).

Or both, and the forwarding has to work when the network is down.

> SSMTP or similar is
> perfectly fine for this, while not taxing memory or boot time.

Yeh, right. SSMTP doesn't have a spool, so anything sending email when
the network is down gets their email silently deleted. hell, SSMTP
doesn't even support aliases.
Look, feel free to have the default be postfix; configured to sendmail
locally and/or remotely ... with no daemon and thus. no inbound
processing. SSMTP is just worthless for most users, hell having nothing
at all would be better (but be ready for every package that needs to
send email to point out not having an smtp sender installed by default
is retarded).

> For 2) these folks have a VERY specific personal preference.

Not true.

> This
> entire discussion proves that.

Right, when almost everyone is saying change to postfix and one or two
people are saying "what's so wrong with sendmail" ... that must mean we
should do nothing *sigh*.

--
James Antill <james@fedoraproject.org>
Fedora

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Old 10-20-2008, 02:13 AM
Matthew Miller
 
Default None of the Above (was Sendmail still default?)

On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 09:47:58PM -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> > But it doesn't make sense for the default desktop OS to be sending you
> > email about all the junk going on under the hood.
> I understand where you are coming from but I have to say the above
> statement is, imo, fundamentally wrong.

I agree with Seth. Since most desktop users don't have a centralized
logserver but do have an e-mail account somewhere, it makes perfect sense.
We need to work some on getting e-mail going somewhere useful, though, and
on making the e-mails sent be not "junk".



--
Matthew Miller <mattdm@mattdm.org>
Senior Systems Architect
Cyberinfrastructure Labs
Computing & Information Technology
Harvard School of Engineering & Applied Sciences

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Old 10-20-2008, 02:14 AM
"Stephen John Smoogen"
 
Default None of the Above (was Sendmail still default?)

On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 7:47 PM, seth vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 2008-10-19 at 15:32 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
>> But it doesn't make
>> sense for the default desktop OS to be sending you email about all the
>> junk going on under the hood.
>
>
> I understand where you are coming from but I have to say the above
> statement is, imo, fundamentally wrong.
>

I am in mixed boat about this... trying to go through 100+ logwatches
every day is a headache as it is . But knowing that there is a
failed cron job on some desktop because the rootkit was b0rked is
valuable... but I am not the average user.

So the first question that comes to mind.. is if the user doesn't know
that the email is being generated.. does it matter it exists? And what
environments are we dealing with?

1) Home use. Does Grandma want to know about logwatch or noisy cron
jobs? Does she even know that there is email in the root user mailbox
since she shouldn't ever log into it?

2) Small scale environment. (2-30 systems).
3) Medium environment (30-100) systems.
4) Large environment 100-1000 systems
5) Ginormouse 1000+ systems.

Each has its use case. When you get to the large to ginormous ones..
you really need to work on the tools for centralized logging, with
agents and things to track usage.

The small to medium are the ones which are probably the ones that need
more work. The Small one might have someone who knows to look at the
root mail spool but most of the time its going to be someone who has
his worn "Linux for Dummies" book from the last person who set up the
lab.

Email only makes sense for this person if
a) its easy to setup.
b) it gives useful information.
c) and they know what to do with it.

It really doesn't matter if a box has postfix, exim, ssmtp, smail, etc
if the email is just stuck on the local machine and the user has no
idea where it is, how to get it, or what it does. And in that case,
does generating the email in the first place help anything? If this
were some new service versus one that we system administrators have
been raised to think as a god-given right.. and we were looking at
adding it to the desktop environment would we? [I am talking about the
default state where email stays local, and the local user probably has
no idea its there.]

--
Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux
How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed
in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice"

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Old 10-20-2008, 04:06 AM
Arjan van de Ven
 
Default None of the Above (was Sendmail still default?)

On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:48:13 -0400
James Antill <james@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 2008-10-19 at 11:37 -0700, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> > Forget about Sendmail. Or Exim. Or Postfix as default install.
> >
> > Really.
> >
> > There's two types of people using fedora:
> > 1) People who don't run a mail server
>
> I think you meant to add _incoming_ in there, having mail that's
> generated on the local machine go somewhere _reliably_ is a basic
> feature required by all users.

most users on the client side use a mail client that has its own
queuing.



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visit http://www.lesswatts.org

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Old 10-20-2008, 04:26 AM
Chris Adams
 
Default None of the Above (was Sendmail still default?)

Once upon a time, Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org> said:
> most users on the client side use a mail client that has its own
> queuing.

Most _interactive_ users do. Most automated tasks (e.g. cron) do not
have any queueing.
--
Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.

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Old 10-20-2008, 08:47 AM
"Nicolas Mailhot"
 
Default None of the Above (was Sendmail still default?)

Le Dim 19 octobre 2008 20:37, Arjan van de Ven a écrit :

> Anybody trying to argue for the politics of Exim/Postfix/Sendmail as
> default choice is ignoring the reality...

Fedora is about advancing the state of free software right?
And free software does not limit itself to the desktop.

Or I don't see why all the fuss about wikipedia switching side is.

--
Nicolas Mailhot

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