On Tue October 14 2008, Oliver Falk wrote:

> So. Are there reasons, why there are no older Python version available?
> If we would have it, we could also package Zope/Plone...

The two main reasons I remember are

1) The fear of bug reports because of users running the old python version for
software that requires the new one

2) The old python versions do not get security updates

So all effort regarding this is best spent on porting Zope to newer python
versions.

Regards,
Till
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On 14.10.2008 11:14, Oliver Falk wrote:

Is there a reason, that there is no compat-python package available?


The short version: The python maintainer didn't want to have one in
Fedora and FESCo backed that decision. You will find a lot more about
this topic in the archives of this list; for example in this discussion:

http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-May/msg00226.html

I doubt the situation changed in between, thus my suggestion would be to
put your packages up for review in bugzilla.rpmfusion.org.


If I'm wrong and if the situation has changed then we should try to move
the compat-python* packages from RPM Fusion to Fedora.


CU
knurd

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Hi Till!

Till Maas wrote:

On Tue October 14 2008, Oliver Falk wrote:


So. Are there reasons, why there are no older Python version available?
If we would have it, we could also package Zope/Plone...


The two main reasons I remember are

1) The fear of bug reports because of users running the old python version for
software that requires the new one


Hm. This could only happen, if someone would use /usr/bin/python23 or
/usr/bin/python2.4, instead of /usr/bin/python. It's very unlikely this
happens by accident - I think... However. I do understand that fear a bit.



2) The old python versions do not get security updates


Python 2.3 latest update was on March 11, to version 2.3.7, so this
seems to be still developed/supported.


Python 2.4 lastest update was also on March 11, to version 2.4.5, so
this is also still developed/supported.


But of course, security flaws are likely first found in latest versions
and it's unsure, if they do find their way into older releases....


So all effort regarding this is best spent on porting Zope to newer python
versions.


I would say the same... BUT: I know the Zope developers are trying this
since a long time already and haven't made much progress - it seems. I'm
happy they do support Python 2.4 already with their latest Versions.
There's also the problem, that Python versions are a a moving target.
Eg. October 1: Release of Python 2.6. What does that mean? Fedora
Rawhide will soon include this - I guess. So as soon as you have ported
Zope to support Python 2.5, you have 2.6 everywhere. And as soon as you
have ported Zope to support Python 2.6, there's likely Python 3 :-)


Also, since I'm not an enthusiastic and smart Python developer, this
sounds quite impossible for me to do...


The only thing I *want*, is to have Zope/Plone and it's deps in Fedora.

We have a lot of Debian servers here, because Zope/Plone works out of
the box... You understand I want to get rid of these boxes :-)


-of

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Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:

On 14.10.2008 11:14, Oliver Falk wrote:

Is there a reason, that there is no compat-python package available?


The short version: The python maintainer didn't want to have one in
Fedora and FESCo backed that decision. You will find a lot more about
this topic in the archives of this list; for example in this discussion:

http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-May/msg00226.html

I doubt the situation changed in between, thus my suggestion would be to
put your packages up for review in bugzilla.rpmfusion.org.


If I'm wrong and if the situation has changed then we should try to move
the compat-python* packages from RPM Fusion to Fedora.


OK. I think I've read the whole old thread now :-)

First of all: I *will* package compat-python and Zope/Plone, because I
need it at work. The only question is if Fedora/FESCo wants me to share
my work with the Fedora community or not!


I can think of a Python 2.4 package that lives within the Zope tree to
make it extra hard for others to use it by accident - but I don't think
that this would be neat, seen from a FHS point of view.


I'm not a big fan of third party repositories. DOT. This would lead to
an extra discussion...


a) I maintain Zope/Plone (+ deps, eg. compat-python) in Fedora
b) I maintain it on my *private* company repo
c) NOTE!: I guess this will lead to packages a la
compat-python24-{elementtree,feedparser,imaging,lxml,setuptools,ps ycopg}
and maybe a whole bunch of others...


So. FESCo? Do you want me to share my work with the community or not. DOT.

-of

PS: I'm thinking of rpmfusion, but then I would have to maintain
packages in 3 places: company, fedora, rpmfusion... If I would maintain
it only company internal, I would get bugreports only by our web
developers - would reduce my work - not too bad, isn't it :-P


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On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 01:02:48PM +0200, Oliver Falk wrote:
> Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
>> On 14.10.2008 11:14, Oliver Falk wrote:
>>> Is there a reason, that there is no compat-python package available?
>>
>> The short version: The python maintainer didn't want to have one in
>> Fedora and FESCo backed that decision. You will find a lot more about
>> this topic in the archives of this list; for example in this
>> discussion:
>> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-May/msg00226.html
>>
>> I doubt the situation changed in between, thus my suggestion would be
>> to put your packages up for review in bugzilla.rpmfusion.org.
>>
>> If I'm wrong and if the situation has changed then we should try to
>> move the compat-python* packages from RPM Fusion to Fedora.
>
> OK. I think I've read the whole old thread now :-)
>
> First of all: I *will* package compat-python and Zope/Plone, because I
> need it at work. The only question is if Fedora/FESCo wants me to share
> my work with the Fedora community or not!
>
> I can think of a Python 2.4 package that lives within the Zope tree to
> make it extra hard for others to use it by accident - but I don't think
> that this would be neat, seen from a FHS point of view.
>
> I'm not a big fan of third party repositories. DOT. This would lead to
> an extra discussion...
>
> a) I maintain Zope/Plone (+ deps, eg. compat-python) in Fedora
> b) I maintain it on my *private* company repo
> c) NOTE!: I guess this will lead to packages a la
> compat-python24-{elementtree,feedparser,imaging,lxml,setuptools,ps ycopg}
> and maybe a whole bunch of others...
>
> So. FESCo? Do you want me to share my work with the community or not. DOT.

While we try very hard to follow all threads on the mailing list, if you
really want to ask FESCo a specific question please either open a Trac
ticket or email the FESCo members directly.

josh

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On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 13:02 +0200, Oliver Falk wrote:

> First of all: I *will* package compat-python and Zope/Plone, because I
> need it at work. The only question is if Fedora/FESCo wants me to share
> my work with the Fedora community or not!

From what I remember the previous person who wanted python in Fedora
was also willing to create/maintain a compat-python24 package. But
that's not the only problem.

> I can think of a Python 2.4 package that lives within the Zope tree to
> make it extra hard for others to use it by accident - but I don't think
> that this would be neat, seen from a FHS point of view.

In some ways this might be doable, at least it has less pain points
than packaging it "properly".

> I'm not a big fan of third party repositories. DOT. This would lead to
> an extra discussion...
>
> a) I maintain Zope/Plone (+ deps, eg. compat-python) in Fedora
> b) I maintain it on my *private* company repo
> c) NOTE!: I guess this will lead to packages a la
> compat-python24-{elementtree,feedparser,imaging,lxml,setuptools,ps ycopg}
> and maybe a whole bunch of others...

C is the biggest problem, in that "someone" has to dup all the modules
people need ... which also need to be kept in sync. ... and you need to
make sure that python-foo doesn't pull in compat-python24-bar (and vice
versa).

--
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Red Hat
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James Antill wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 13:02 +0200, Oliver Falk wrote:
>
>> First of all: I *will* package compat-python and Zope/Plone, because I
>> need it at work. The only question is if Fedora/FESCo wants me to share
>> my work with the Fedora community or not!
>
> From what I remember the previous person who wanted python in Fedora
> was also willing to create/maintain a compat-python24 package. But
> that's not the only problem.
>
>> I can think of a Python 2.4 package that lives within the Zope tree to
>> make it extra hard for others to use it by accident - but I don't think
>> that this would be neat, seen from a FHS point of view.
>
> In some ways this might be doable, at least it has less pain points
> than packaging it "properly".
>
>> I'm not a big fan of third party repositories. DOT. This would lead to
>> an extra discussion...
>>
>> a) I maintain Zope/Plone (+ deps, eg. compat-python) in Fedora
>> b) I maintain it on my *private* company repo
>> c) NOTE!: I guess this will lead to packages a la
>> compat-python24-{elementtree,feedparser,imaging,lxml,setuptools,ps ycopg}
>> and maybe a whole bunch of others...
>
> C is the biggest problem, in that "someone" has to dup all the modules
> people need ... which also need to be kept in sync. ... and you need to
> make sure that python-foo doesn't pull in compat-python24-bar (and vice
> versa).
>
>
If C really is the biggest issue, we could look at what Debian is doing
in this area. They have a package (I think it's called python-central
although that might be the old package and they have a newer one that
takes its place) which aids them in putting the python source modules in
a central store. Then the modules are byte compiled for every python
that is installed on the system. I'm not certain of how it works or
whether it is hacky in practice, just aware of its existence.

Is there anyone here with some Debian experience who can point us to a
better piece of information than what I just gave?


-Toshio

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On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:02:48 +0200
oliver@linux-kernel.at (Oliver Falk) wrote:

> OK. I think I've read the whole old thread now :-)
>
> First of all: I *will* package compat-python and Zope/Plone, because
> I need it at work. The only question is if Fedora/FESCo wants me to
> share my work with the Fedora community or not!

FYI, note that compat-python24 and compat-zope are already in livna
(and I assume then also rpmfusion).

Perhaps you could offer to help maintain those with their maintainer
there? Even less work, since they are already packaged/used.

kevin
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On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 09:21 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> FYI, note that compat-python24 and compat-zope are already in livna
> (and I assume then also rpmfusion).
>
> Perhaps you could offer to help maintain those with their maintainer
> there? Even less work, since they are already packaged/used.

The maintainer, Jonathan Steffan (who is currently having email issues),
told me that he would appreciate having comaintainers. The livna
infrastructure doesn't support them, but the RPMFusion infrastructure
does.

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On 14.10.2008 18:20, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:

On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 09:21 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:

FYI, note that compat-python24 and compat-zope are already in livna
(and I assume then also rpmfusion).


Perhaps you could offer to help maintain those with their maintainer
there? Even less work, since they are already packaged/used.

The maintainer, Jonathan Steffan (who is currently having email issues),
told me that he would appreciate having comaintainers. The livna
infrastructure doesn't support them


Which is not true; the nvidia drivers for example are maintained by two
different contributors together. I hope we for RPM Fusion can even find
more maintainers for them, as there is afaics still room for lots of
improvements and better testing when new drivers get released from upstream.



but the RPMFusion infrastructure does.


Yep.

Cu
knurd

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