On 23.10.2008 19:40, Jesse Keating wrote:

On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 19:31 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
Not sure if my mind plays tricks with me, but I got the impression that
I hear something like the above as a "shoot the discussion down"
argument every few days right now... This is starting to annoy me, as
statements like the above don't lead anywhere: Decisions have to be
made; repeatably pointing out that it's hard to do them doesn't bring us
a tiny bit further. So please:


Just let a group of interested people make a decision and realize it as
a feature for F11! Then we hopefully can get rid of this topic (which
seems to pop up every few weeks...).


The "Feature" exists. You get it by de-selecting every box in anaconda.


I unsure if I agree or not, but one things seems obvious to me: The
current solution doesn't satisfy a lot of people (actually "it confuses
people" might be the the better description). So if there are people
that want to work out a better solution please let them just do that; if
you think that clutters the UI then bring that point up; but just
repeatably stating that it's hard to pick the "minimal package set"
doesn't bring us any further.



A committee of interested people aren't going to magically make new UI
show up in anaconda, that has to be done through the anaconda upstream
and maintainers.


Sounds yet again like you want to shoot the discussion down, as you make
it sound like getting things into anaconda is something totally
impossible. But luckily Fedora and anaconda are open-source projects;
Red Hat even opened RHL/started Fedora to give the community a chance to
influence and improve things like that. So give them a chance to do
that; yes, it's maybe won't be easy to realize with a clean UI, but I'm
optimistic it's possible somehow.


Cu
knurd

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On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 20:05 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
> > The "Feature" exists. You get it by de-selecting every box in anaconda.
>
> I unsure if I agree or not, but one things seems obvious to me: The
> current solution doesn't satisfy a lot of people (actually "it confuses
> people" might be the the better description).

And so did the "minimal" offerings of past.

> So if there are people
> that want to work out a better solution please let them just do that; if
> you think that clutters the UI then bring that point up; but just
> repeatably stating that it's hard to pick the "minimal package set"
> doesn't bring us any further.

I've stated over and over again that you're welcome to try. I even
pointed out that Comps is the place to do it, and that is even open for
commit access. So far, I haven't seen any real discussion or changes
there.

> > A committee of interested people aren't going to magically make new UI
> > show up in anaconda, that has to be done through the anaconda upstream
> > and maintainers.
>
> Sounds yet again like you want to shoot the discussion down, as you make
> it sound like getting things into anaconda is something totally
> impossible.

Not at all. However this particular thing I don't see a lot of chance
of getting in, at least not in the previously suggested ways.

> But luckily Fedora and anaconda are open-source projects;

As I stated.

> Red Hat even opened RHL/started Fedora to give the community a chance to
> influence and improve things like that. So give them a chance to do
> that; yes, it's maybe won't be easy to realize with a clean UI, but I'm
> optimistic it's possible somehow.

Isn't that why I said to go through the anaconda upstream and
maintainers to get such a change in?

--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature!
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Thorsten Leemhuis <fedora@leemhuis.info> wrote:
> On 23.10.2008 18:56, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > Neither will the meaning of 'minimal' be. Will it have networking?
> > Will it have yum? Will it have ssh? Will it speak my language? So on,
> > and so forth.
>
> Not sure if my mind plays tricks with me, but I got the impression
> that I hear something like the above as a "shoot the discussion down"
> argument every few days right now... This is starting to annoy me, as
> statements like the above don't lead anywhere: Decisions have to be
> made; repeatably pointing out that it's hard to do them doesn't bring
> us a tiny bit further. So please:
>
> Just let a group of interested people make a decision and realize it
> as a feature for F11! Then we hopefully can get rid of this topic
> (which seems to pop up every few weeks...).

That /has/ been done (yes, I've been around since Red Hat 3.x days), and it
made /never/ everybody happy, thus the recurring flamewars on the
topic. When they say here that it _can't_ be solved it is not out of
lazyness, it is out of (often bitter) experience.

What is minimal for me is sorely lacking while barroquely bloated for the
next interested party.
--
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Departamento de Informatica Fono: +56 32 2654431
Universidad Tecnica Federico Santa Maria +56 32 2654239
Casilla 110-V, Valparaiso, Chile 2340000 Fax: +56 32 2797513

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On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 6:43 PM, Horst H. von Brand
<vonbrand@inf.utfsm.cl> wrote:
> Thorsten Leemhuis <fedora@leemhuis.info> wrote:
>> On 23.10.2008 18:56, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> > Neither will the meaning of 'minimal' be. Will it have networking?
>> > Will it have yum? Will it have ssh? Will it speak my language? So on,
>> > and so forth.
>>
>> Not sure if my mind plays tricks with me, but I got the impression
>> that I hear something like the above as a "shoot the discussion down"
>> argument every few days right now... This is starting to annoy me, as
>> statements like the above don't lead anywhere: Decisions have to be
>> made; repeatably pointing out that it's hard to do them doesn't bring
>> us a tiny bit further. So please:
>>
>> Just let a group of interested people make a decision and realize it
>> as a feature for F11! Then we hopefully can get rid of this topic
>> (which seems to pop up every few weeks...).
>
> That /has/ been done (yes, I've been around since Red Hat 3.x days), and it
> made /never/ everybody happy, thus the recurring flamewars on the
> topic. When they say here that it _can't_ be solved it is not out of
> lazyness, it is out of (often bitter) experience.
>
> What is minimal for me is sorely lacking while barroquely bloated for the
> next interested party.
> --
> Dr. Horst H. von Brand User #22616 counter.li.org
> Departamento de Informatica Fono: +56 32 2654431
> Universidad Tecnica Federico Santa Maria +56 32 2654239
> Casilla 110-V, Valparaiso, Chile 2340000 Fax: +56 32 2797513
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>


I have to agree with Jesse and Horst because I remember the "minimal"
install option too and any option I chose always disappointed because
I found I had to add stuff to the minimal installs and remove stuff
from the other installs.

So I like what we currently have more. It builds up less expectation
and therefore disappoints less. ;-) And that is all you can hope for
given the extreme visability of the feature.



--
Mat Booth
www.matbooth.co.uk

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