Ralf Corsepius пишет:

On Fri, 2008-10-10 at 15:31 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:

On Sat, 2008-10-11 at 00:25 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

Great, now get consensus on what 'minimal' should be.

shell + networking.

Approximately the set of packages required for a networked install.

And does that include the ability to add more later?

Sure, yum + rpm are a requirement.

Ralf




No, only rpm is needed.
So, yum may be safely installed later by rpm.

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On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 09:29 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> You are nit-picking at words.

As was everybody who ever complained about the "minimal" install option
we had.

>
> Though a Fedora installation with yum + rpm isn't "truely minimal", it's
> the minimal install to keep an installation usable/maintainable.

Which is useful to some, too fat for others.

> And yes, the fact yum pulls in python is a real problem on small
> systems. Even worse are the system-config-* tools, most of which pull in
> many more packages and don't even work without X.
>
> > Congratulations you've just walked
> > into a decade + argument.
> I don't see this.

Probably because you haven't been on the front line, taking the bug
reports, talking to users at events, trying to tweak the targets to
match expectation and continually failing because there is no singular
expectation.

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On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 08:29:11AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
>
> Probably because you haven't been on the front line, taking the bug
> reports, talking to users at events, trying to tweak the targets to
> match expectation and continually failing because there is no singular
> expectation.

Indeed, so just come with what you prefer. With otr without python
it will be better than what is now.

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On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 18:13 +0200, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 08:29:11AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> >
> > Probably because you haven't been on the front line, taking the bug
> > reports, talking to users at events, trying to tweak the targets to
> > match expectation and continually failing because there is no singular
> > expectation.
>
> Indeed, so just come with what you prefer. With otr without python
> it will be better than what is now.

Not sure what you mean by "otr".

When I raised a bit of objection over adding 'yum' to the @core list,
the responding argument was that if you're getting so specific in your
'minimal' install, you're either doing a chroot type install or can
modify a groupdata set to strip it out for your install, whereas for all
the other cases it's better to have it there.

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On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 09:40:09AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 18:13 +0200, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 08:29:11AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > >
> > > Probably because you haven't been on the front line, taking the bug
> > > reports, talking to users at events, trying to tweak the targets to
> > > match expectation and continually failing because there is no singular
> > > expectation.
> >
> > Indeed, so just come with what you prefer. With otr without python
> > it will be better than what is now.
>
> Not sure what you mean by "otr".

'or'

> When I raised a bit of objection over adding 'yum' to the @core list,
> the responding argument was that if you're getting so specific in your
> 'minimal' install, you're either doing a chroot type install or can
> modify a groupdata set to strip it out for your install, whereas for all
> the other cases it's better to have it there.

I think that these are valid arguments, in my opinion you should just
decide (as the release manager in chief or something like that ;-) for
others, as there will never be an agreement. I think that it would be
better to have yum, but understand perfectly that other are better with
rpm only.

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On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 18:45 +0200, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> I think that these are valid arguments, in my opinion you should just
> decide (as the release manager in chief or something like that ;-) for
> others, as there will never be an agreement. I think that it would be
> better to have yum, but understand perfectly that other are better with
> rpm only.

The problem was the never ending bug parade and arguments on mailing
lists, trade shows, etc...

We decided the only way to win this game was to not play at all, and we
let people decide their own definition of 'minimal'.

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On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 11:08:00AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 18:45 +0200, Patrice Dumas wrote:
> > I think that these are valid arguments, in my opinion you should just
> > decide (as the release manager in chief or something like that ;-) for
> > others, as there will never be an agreement. I think that it would be
> > better to have yum, but understand perfectly that other are better with
> > rpm only.
>
> The problem was the never ending bug parade and arguments on mailing
> lists, trade shows, etc...

Indeed that will happen. But does doing nothing really prevent it from
happening?

> We decided the only way to win this game was to not play at all, and we
> let people decide their own definition of 'minimal'.

The final word is up to you (and people in the release team) to choose
between all theses possibilities (not very helpful, I know, but I think
that there is no clear technically superior solution so you have to make
your choice based on your 'expert' judgement).

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** Hi,

The problem was the never ending bug parade and arguments on mailing

lists, trade shows, etc...



We decided the only way to win this game was to not play at all, and we

let people decide their own definition of 'minimal'.*I think the decision was good but a advance fedora user can only define his/ her minimal , according to me there lies the problem as new users don't have that knowledge about each and every packages.



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thank you.


Shambo Bose




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Le lundi 13 octobre 2008 à 21:48 +0200, Patrice Dumas a écrit :
> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 11:08:00AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:

> > We decided the only way to win this game was to not play at all, and we
> > let people decide their own definition of 'minimal'.
>
> The final word is up to you (and people in the release team) to choose
> between all theses possibilities (not very helpful, I know, but I think
> that there is no clear technically superior solution so you have to make
> your choice based on your 'expert' judgement).

The final word is for the people who care about this minimal thing to
organise themselves and propose comps modification that permit minimal
installs.

As has been stated recently comps is 100% open and there are zero
barriers for a group of auditors to improvr our package classification.

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On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 21:48 +0200, Patrice Dumas wrote:
>
> Indeed that will happen. But does doing nothing really prevent it from
> happening?

Yes, since removing the install classes, the bugs against these classes
being wrong in one way shape or form have all but disappeared.

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