On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 10:11 PM, Colin Walters <walters@verbum.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
>> Chuck Anderson writes:
>>>
>>> Audio works on the GDM login screen. Orca starts and reads the login
>>> window to me...
>>
>>
>> What Fedora? And, what GDM? This worked, hmm, perhaps 60-70% for me back
>> in Fedora 8. But GDM has gone through a massive rewrite since then. None
>> of the users I'm in touch with have gotten this to work on F-9 or later.
>
> I just tried this too with GDM, and got speech too. I right clicked
> in the lower left of the screen, checked the "Read text" option, and
> moused over and heard sound. Have you filed a bug about this issue?

Incidentally you should be able to enable this by default so sightless
people don't have the bootstrapping problem of enabling TTS. There is
some documentation on the new GDM configuration here:
http://live.gnome.org/GDM/2.22/Configuration

Unfortunately GConf is overly complex to use (a bug we would like to
fix), but this page describes how to use GConf to set GDM's
system-wide settings:

https://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/desktop-guide/s1-ddg-intro-gconf-default-mandatory.html

So for example:
sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source
xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults --type=boolean -s
/apps/gdm/simple-greeter/accessibility/screen_reader_enabled true

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Colin Walters wrote:

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Janina Sajka wrote:

The problems we have right now are sufficiently sever to be
showstoppers. At the SpeakupModified.Org we recommend disabling
pulseaudio. As things stand in F-9, one gets no audio until after a user
logs in on the GUI. So, how are those who need screen reader support
supposed to use the a11y features of GDM? As it stands, there seems no
way to get console audio without that GUI login. Also a nonstarter in
the screen reader user community.


If you want to run terminal applications, can't you just log in to a
full screen gnome-terminal?


It seems a useful initial step toward resolution is to run pulseaudio
as a system daemon, via an init script, /sbin/service, /sbin/chkconfig.
The trade-offs vs the per user model that F-9 employs are probably more
than acceptable to most a11y users.

So, let me simply ask ... Has anyone a working init script for
pulseaudio as a system daemon? Anything close that we could continue to
refine as an alternative configuration option for Fedora?


We're going to be removing the legacy non-X system consoles by default
in the long run.


Aside from the fact that this little nugget derailed the thread due to
the many people (rightly*, IMO) freaking out, I fail to see where any
part of your message to which I am replying was of any relevance
whatsoever to this thread. PA as a system daemon should work (or,
perhaps, not work) regardless of what happens to "non-X system consoles"
in the future. Nor do I even see where Janina said *anything* about
them, or even about consoles or the CLI in general.


Did I miss something?

(*...though you still haven't answered if you really want to kill non-X
consoles or just hide them really well, which would have avoided all that.)


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On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 11:30 PM, Matthew Woehlke
<mw_triad@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> (*...though you still haven't answered if you really want to kill non-X
> consoles or just hide them really well, which would have avoided all that.)

Maybe someone could split this off into a different thread.

Back on topic: should I just file a bug against pulseaudio for each
usecase that doesn't work? or is there a PulseAudip updates in
in386.newkey that I should wait for?

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Colin Walters writes:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
> > Chuck Anderson writes:
> >>
> >> Audio works on the GDM login screen. Orca starts and reads the login
> >> window to me...
> >
> >
> > What Fedora? And, what GDM? This worked, hmm, perhaps 60-70% for me back
> > in Fedora 8. But GDM has gone through a massive rewrite since then. None
> > of the users I'm in touch with have gotten this to work on F-9 or later.
>
> I just tried this too with GDM, and got speech too. I right clicked
> in the lower left of the screen, checked the "Read text" option, and
> moused over and heard sound. Have you filed a bug about this issue?
>
Well, the blind user will need to use the built in Ctrl-s rather than
the mouse, but this is helpful to know at least to help narrow down the
problem.

Are you gdm 2.22.x?

Janina

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Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada
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Colin Walters writes:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 10:11 PM, Colin Walters <walters@verbum.org> wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
> >> Chuck Anderson writes:
> >>>
> >>> Audio works on the GDM login screen. Orca starts and reads the login
> >>> window to me...
> >>
> >>
> >> What Fedora? And, what GDM? This worked, hmm, perhaps 60-70% for me back
> >> in Fedora 8. But GDM has gone through a massive rewrite since then. None
> >> of the users I'm in touch with have gotten this to work on F-9 or later.
> >
> > I just tried this too with GDM, and got speech too. I right clicked
> > in the lower left of the screen, checked the "Read text" option, and
> > moused over and heard sound. Have you filed a bug about this issue?
>
> Incidentally you should be able to enable this by default so sightless
> people don't have the bootstrapping problem of enabling TTS. There is
> some documentation on the new GDM configuration here:
> http://live.gnome.org/GDM/2.22/Configuration
>
I'm sure personal machines will be set up with this as a default, once
all the bugs are cleared. One known issue, last it was working in F-8,
is that you could get speech via GDM, or speech on the Desktop after
login--but not both. Rather a bug.

Also, the intent is that Ctrl-s needs to be available so that any GNOME
desktop, whether your sister's, your neighbor's, the university's, or
the local coffee stand's, can work via a reliable "gesture."

Janina

> Unfortunately GConf is overly complex to use (a bug we would like to
> fix), but this page describes how to use GConf to set GDM's
> system-wide settings:
>
> https://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/desktop-guide/s1-ddg-intro-gconf-default-mandatory.html
>
> So for example:
> sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source
> xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults --type=boolean -s
> /apps/gdm/simple-greeter/accessibility/screen_reader_enabled true
>
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Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com

Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada
Learn more at http://ScreenlessPhone.Com

Chair, Open Accessibility janina@a11y.org
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On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Matthew Woehlke
<mw_triad@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
> Aside from the fact that this little nugget derailed the thread due to the
> many people (rightly*, IMO) freaking out, I fail to see where any part of
> your message to which I am replying was of any relevance whatsoever to this
> thread. PA as a system daemon should work (or, perhaps, not work) regardless
> of what happens to "non-X system consoles" in the future. Nor do I even see
> where Janina said *anything* about them, or even about consoles or the CLI
> in general.

As I understood it, pulse as a system daemon was at least partially by
the desire to use it on a console, outside of a normal X login (and
all the infrastructure that comes with X, like the DBus session bus
which defines the session).

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Colin Walters writes:
> As I understood it, pulse as a system daemon was at least partially by
> the desire to use it on a console, outside of a normal X login (and
> all the infrastructure that comes with X, like the DBus session bus
> which defines the session).
>
That's one use case. Someone here had another use case that was GUI.
There are probably additional use cases, and pulseaudio.org lays out
advantages and disadvantages of per user vs daemon mode.

The need is to support all the legitimate use cases. At this point I
would be happy with a pointer to a reasonably similar init script as a
starting point.

I know you don't care about consoles--I got that. But, I do, and
apparently I'm not alone. Surely the Fedora tent is big enough.

PS: Speaking strictly personally, I runlevel 5 by default. I like it
that way. I'm thrilled to finally have an up to date browser in Firefox
3, which is working very well with Orca, thank you. And, I'm using Open
Office more and more.

But, I still launch 24 consoles when I boot, because I actually use most
of them in very specific ways. About 6 of these 24 run screen with 9
separate terminal windows defined by ~/.screenrc. I don't see gnome
terminal replacing that anytime soon.

Yes, I'm familiar with gnome terminal. I'm reduced to it, and reduced to
gedit, when I have to run my laptop all day long on batteries, meaning
that I suspend frequently. Because of issues between the TTS engine
driver and alsa, I can't effectively resume consoles right now--screen
appears to be full of null chars, which rather defeats the screen
reader.

I get by with terminal, and gedit for notes, but it's a case of getting
by. No way can I replicate my rapid, key-combination-based random access
to the various tasks I park in particular consoles on gnome-terminal,
when all I have to allow cycling among them is Alt+TAB or maybe a series
of desktop shortcuts. That would be too slow and inefficient, in my
experience to date.

Janina

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Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com

Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada
Learn more at http://ScreenlessPhone.Com

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On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
>
> But, I still launch 24 consoles when I boot, because I actually use most
> of them in very specific ways. About 6 of these 24 run screen with 9
> separate terminal windows defined by ~/.screenrc. I don't see gnome
> terminal replacing that anytime soon.

It has tabs, and you can script it; I don't see what wouldn't work
with your setup.

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On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Colin Walters <walters@verbum.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
>>
>> But, I still launch 24 consoles when I boot, because I actually use most
>> of them in very specific ways. About 6 of these 24 run screen with 9
>> separate terminal windows defined by ~/.screenrc. I don't see gnome
>> terminal replacing that anytime soon.
>
> It has tabs, and you can script it; I don't see what wouldn't work
> with your setup.
>
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I just updated from an Intel Celeron D 2.8Ghz 533Mhz FSB to an Intel
P4 3.0Hz 800Mhz FSB, which in turned allowed my memory to operate at
400Mhz instead of 333MHz.

One of the noticeable improvements is that I can use Firefox +
Pulseaudio + Amarok. Previously, at 4 or 5 tabs, scrolling, or similar
activity in Firefox would somehow bring about Pulseaudio's demise. Top
reports Pulse audio between 30% and 55% CPU usage.


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On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 00:01 +0200, Karel Zak wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 12:48:57PM -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
> > On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 17:40 +0100, Bill Crawford wrote:
> > > If you have multi-channel hardware that mixes itself, then using
> > > PulseAudio sort of defeats the purpose of that hardware ;o)
> >
> > You're absolutely right... if all you're using PulseAudio for is basic
> > mixing. But as soon as you need/want something like per-app volume
> > control, network transport, audio stream redirection, or audio device
> > hotplugging then you want PulseAudio.
>
> How many **ordinary** Fedora users really need these **advanced**
> features?
>
> For example I have never had any serious SW problem with sound on
> Linux. And I use it for more than 10 years...

I have USB speakers at home. I do not have them at work. I used to
have to change the alsa default device in system-config-soundcard and
then quit all open apps just to get the sound to come out of the
hotplugged USB speakers. Flash used to only play to the default alsa
soundcard. That completely totally sucks. Mac OS X and Windows
seamlessly redirect the output to the USB speakers when they are plugged
in, and when I unplug them the sound switches back to onboard instantly.
USB headphones and webcams with integrated microphones (FW iSight for
example) are also used quite often. Those get hotplugged and thus they
should just work.

I could never, ever, ever get plain ALSA to handle any sort of
hotplugging automagically. It just works with Pulse. I shouldn't have
to hand-edit random config files in both /etc and ~, reload kernel
modules so they can get different ALSA device number module parameters,
and restart apps just to get sound to go where I want it.

Dan


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