On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Colin Walters <walters@verbum.org> wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Matthew Woehlke
>> <mw_triad@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>>
>>> No,
>>> thanks; I'd rather have X fail to start and dump me at a normal console from
>>> which I can fix the problem *without rebooting*, much less needing to dig up
>>> a rescue disk :P.
>>
>> I believe we already do that today, and am not advocating removing
>> that functionality if possible. Anyways, I've said what I need to, so
>> hopefully people won't be surprised later.
>
>
> I'm confused. Is Fedora really going to remove non X consoles?

I'm talking about the direction and technology of the desktop product;
what server images, embedded etc. do is an entirely different matter.

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On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Colin Walters <walters@verbum.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Colin Walters <walters@verbum.org> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Matthew Woehlke
>>> <mw_triad@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No,
>>>> thanks; I'd rather have X fail to start and dump me at a normal console from
>>>> which I can fix the problem *without rebooting*, much less needing to dig up
>>>> a rescue disk :P.
>>>
>>> I believe we already do that today, and am not advocating removing
>>> that functionality if possible. Anyways, I've said what I need to, so
>>> hopefully people won't be surprised later.
>>
>>
>> I'm confused. Is Fedora really going to remove non X consoles?
>
> I'm talking about the direction and technology of the desktop product;
> what server images, embedded etc. do is an entirely different matter.


What is the proper procedure for adding input to this decision?


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On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:05 PM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What is the proper procedure for adding input to this decision?

You are now! There is plenty to figure out (like the recovery
scenarios) and finish, and so any help is appreciated.

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Colin Walters wrote:

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Matthew Woehlke
<mw_triad@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:


No,
thanks; I'd rather have X fail to start and dump me at a normal console from
which I can fix the problem *without rebooting*, much less needing to dig up
a rescue disk :P.


I believe we already do that today, and am not advocating removing
that functionality if possible.


Right. If X doesn't work, we currently fall back on non-X consoles.

You said earlier:

We're going to be removing the legacy non-X system consoles by default
in the long run.


...which would cause a problem there.

Maybe we're simply miscommunicating. Did you mean "we are going to
arrange so that you never see a non-X console unless you a: ask for one
(ctrl-alt-fX) or b: something goes wrong"? That's not how I read that
the first time (now, I'm simply unsure what you meant). If that's the
case, cool, forget what I said :-). Just so long as those "legacy non-X
consoles" don't cease to exist, I've no gripes making them as hidden as
you like for people that don't go looking for them.


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On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 07:02:16PM -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Colin Walters <walters@verbum.org> wrote:
> >> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Matthew Woehlke
> >> <mw_triad@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> No,
> >>> thanks; I'd rather have X fail to start and dump me at a normal console from
> >>> which I can fix the problem *without rebooting*, much less needing to dig up
> >>> a rescue disk :P.
> >>
> >> I believe we already do that today, and am not advocating removing
> >> that functionality if possible. Anyways, I've said what I need to, so
> >> hopefully people won't be surprised later.
> >
> >
> > I'm confused. Is Fedora really going to remove non X consoles?
>
> I'm talking about the direction and technology of the desktop product;

What is reason for this "direction"? I still don't see any technical
reason. What is wrong with mingetty(8)?

BTW, "We're going to remove..." -- who is "We"?

Karel

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On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 19:02 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:

> I'm talking about the direction and technology of the desktop product;
> what server images, embedded etc. do is an entirely different matter.


Desktop Product? We don't make a desktop product. We make a linux
distribution.

What "Desktop Product" are you talking about?

-sv


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On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Seth Vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 19:02 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
>
>> I'm talking about the direction and technology of the desktop product;
>> what server images, embedded etc. do is an entirely different matter.
>
>
> Desktop Product? We don't make a desktop product.

The live CD image, combined with the default comps tree from
"gnome-desktop" is what I consider the desktop product.

> We make a linux
> distribution.

I am certainly not here to make a "linux distribution", which I
consider a derogatory term. It implies that all we do is take the
linux kernel and a bunch of tarballs we found on the internet, compile
them, and throw the binaries over the wall. The goal is rather to
make a compelling and useful free desktop operating system. To do
that, you need to make choices about how the operating system works,
and how pieces fit together. If people want an OS that tries to
support every possible configuration of every tarball that can be
found on the Internet, and is consequently near-paralyzed by choice
and is only able to make releases every 5 years, debian.org is -->
that way.

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Chuck Anderson writes:
>
> Audio works on the GDM login screen. Orca starts and reads the login
> window to me...


What Fedora? And, what GDM? This worked, hmm, perhaps 60-70% for me back
in Fedora 8. But GDM has gone through a massive rewrite since then. None
of the users I'm in touch with have gotten this to work on F-9 or later.

So, please share the magic if you know something we don't.

Janina

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Colin Walters writes:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Seth Vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> > On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 19:02 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
> >
> >> I'm talking about the direction and technology of the desktop product;
> >> what server images, embedded etc. do is an entirely different matter.
> >
> >
> > Desktop Product? We don't make a desktop product.
>
> The live CD image, combined with the default comps tree from
> "gnome-desktop" is what I consider the desktop product.
>
> > We make a linux
> > distribution.
>
> I am certainly not here to make a "linux distribution", which I
> consider a derogatory term.

And this is your reason for denying others the choice they would make?
Well, that rather speaks for itself, imho.

In any case, thanks for hijacking the thread away from pulseaudio. I
guess the system daemon is still purely theoretical--described on
pulseaudio.org without specifics.

Janina

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On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
> Chuck Anderson writes:
>>
>> Audio works on the GDM login screen. Orca starts and reads the login
>> window to me...
>
>
> What Fedora? And, what GDM? This worked, hmm, perhaps 60-70% for me back
> in Fedora 8. But GDM has gone through a massive rewrite since then. None
> of the users I'm in touch with have gotten this to work on F-9 or later.

I just tried this too with GDM, and got speech too. I right clicked
in the lower left of the screen, checked the "Read text" option, and
moused over and heard sound. Have you filed a bug about this issue?

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