Karel Zak wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 12:48:57PM -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
>> On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 17:40 +0100, Bill Crawford wrote:
>>> If you have multi-channel hardware that mixes itself, then using
>>> PulseAudio sort of defeats the purpose of that hardware ;o)
>> You're absolutely right... if all you're using PulseAudio for is basic
>> mixing. But as soon as you need/want something like per-app volume
>> control, network transport, audio stream redirection, or audio device
>> hotplugging then you want PulseAudio.
>
> How many **ordinary** Fedora users really need these **advanced**
> features?
>
> For example I have never had any serious SW problem with sound on
> Linux. And I use it for more than 10 years...
>
Quite a few need network transport when you talk about thinclient. It's
made worse by the fact that in many of those situations you have a whole
bunch of extremely ordinary Fedora users to a small number of
entry-level-knowledge admins.

-Toshio

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Arthur Pemberton <pemboa <at> gmail.com> writes:

>
> I have a lot of seemingly pulse audio related issues on my F9 desktop.
> Since I really like the idea behind Pulseaudio, I would like to see
> these get sorted out, and would like to know how I can help in terms
> of providing useful information.
>

FWIW, there is a FUSE patch, called CUSE (character device emulation in
userspace). The author also created a proof of concept userspace OSS emulation
which should work with pulseaudio, but it requires ALSA OSS emulation to be
disabled in kernel at compile time.

The implementation doesn't have mmap oss support at this time.
http://userweb.kernel.org/~tj/ossp/

kernel mailing list discussion:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.file-systems.fuse.devel/6818/focus=6820

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Arthur Pemberton writes:
> I have a lot of seemingly pulse audio related issues on my F9 desktop.
> Since I really like the idea behind Pulseaudio, I would like to see
> these get sorted out, and would like to know how I can help in terms
> of providing useful information.
>
Well, let me step up to say that I feel the same way. Pulse Audio holds
great promise for accessibility, but it ain't working out in practice
yet. And, some of us are scratching our heads as to how we get from here
to there.

The problems we have right now are sufficiently sever to be
showstoppers. At the SpeakupModified.Org we recommend disabling
pulseaudio. As things stand in F-9, one gets no audio until after a user
logs in on the GUI. So, how are those who need screen reader support
supposed to use the a11y features of GDM? As it stands, there seems no
way to get console audio without that GUI login. Also a nonstarter in
the screen reader user community.

It seems a useful initial step toward resolution is to run pulseaudio
as a system daemon, via an init script, /sbin/service, /sbin/chkconfig.
The trade-offs vs the per user model that F-9 employs are probably more
than acceptable to most a11y users.

So, let me simply ask ... Has anyone a working init script for
pulseaudio as a system daemon? Anything close that we could continue to
refine as an alternative configuration option for Fedora?

Janina


Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.202.595.7777; sip:janina@a11y.org
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com

Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada
Learn more at http://ScreenlessPhone.Com

Chair, Open Accessibility janina@a11y.org
Linux Foundation http://a11y.org

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On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
>
> The problems we have right now are sufficiently sever to be
> showstoppers. At the SpeakupModified.Org we recommend disabling
> pulseaudio. As things stand in F-9, one gets no audio until after a user
> logs in on the GUI. So, how are those who need screen reader support
> supposed to use the a11y features of GDM? As it stands, there seems no
> way to get console audio without that GUI login. Also a nonstarter in
> the screen reader user community.

If you want to run terminal applications, can't you just log in to a
full screen gnome-terminal?

> It seems a useful initial step toward resolution is to run pulseaudio
> as a system daemon, via an init script, /sbin/service, /sbin/chkconfig.
> The trade-offs vs the per user model that F-9 employs are probably more
> than acceptable to most a11y users.
>
> So, let me simply ask ... Has anyone a working init script for
> pulseaudio as a system daemon? Anything close that we could continue to
> refine as an alternative configuration option for Fedora?

We're going to be removing the legacy non-X system consoles by default
in the long run.

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On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 12:40 PM, Bill Crawford
<billcrawford1970@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If you have multi-channel hardware that mixes itself, then using
> PulseAudio sort of defeats the purpose of that hardware ;o)

Such hardware is as far as I understand it, really no longer sold and
has not been for some time, because it just makes more sense to do in
software.

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On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 03:46:11PM -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
> >
> > The problems we have right now are sufficiently sever to be
> > showstoppers. At the SpeakupModified.Org we recommend disabling
> > pulseaudio. As things stand in F-9, one gets no audio until after a user
> > logs in on the GUI. So, how are those who need screen reader support
> > supposed to use the a11y features of GDM? As it stands, there seems no
> > way to get console audio without that GUI login. Also a nonstarter in
> > the screen reader user community.
>
> If you want to run terminal applications, can't you just log in to a
> full screen gnome-terminal?

He wants to use audio before login to X Window. Somehow I don't understand
how do you want to fix this problem by gnome-terminal...

> > It seems a useful initial step toward resolution is to run pulseaudio
> > as a system daemon, via an init script, /sbin/service, /sbin/chkconfig.
> > The trade-offs vs the per user model that F-9 employs are probably more
> > than acceptable to most a11y users.
> >
> > So, let me simply ask ... Has anyone a working init script for
> > pulseaudio as a system daemon? Anything close that we could continue to
> > refine as an alternative configuration option for Fedora?
>
> We're going to be removing the legacy non-X system consoles by default
> in the long run.

Yeah, we need more RAM for our hungry GUI applications :-)

Karel

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On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Colin Walters <walters@verbum.org> wrote:
> If you want to run terminal applications, can't you just log in to a
> full screen gnome-terminal?

I got the impression that Janina was talking about those who need
audio to be able to login in the first place.

> We're going to be removing the legacy non-X system consoles by default
> in the long run.

Those have been useful to me in a lot of circumstances that I don't
see going away anytime soon. Here are a few just off the top of my
head.

1. It's late. I'm tired. I log out, then remember some small system
administration task I meant to do. Rather than wait for all the GUI
stuff to reload as I log back in, it is much faster to switch to a
text console, login there, do my task, then log back out.

2. I'm playing some game that runs at a low resolution and it crashes.
I don't know why, but my mouse is almost always nonfunctional
afterwards. When my desktop is at 320x200 and I can't use the mouse,
regaining control is difficult. I often switch to a text console so I
can clean up some running programs in a nice way before I
Ctrl-Alt-Backspace to get my X back. (I have this happen quite often
with one particular game that my 9 year old likes. I'd run it in GDB
so I can get a backtrace and file a proper bug report, except when it
crashes I can't SEE the backtrace because my screen is at 320x200 and
my mouse is dead. Argh!)

3. I launch some X program that consumes 100% CPU and is clearly out
of control. In those cases, the mouse becomes sluggish. It can take
a very long time to either launch a gnome-terminal or get the mouse
over a gnome-terminal so I can click on it, have the click actually
move the focus to that window, type the command to kill the process,
have the typed text actually show up on the gnome-terminal, press the
Enter key, then wait the shell to process the command. It is MUCH
faster to switch to a text console, login, kill the process, logout,
and switch back to X.

Once you can guarantee that X programs won't consume 100% CPU or crash
while in a different screen resolution from my desktop, and can
guarantee that logging into an X session is below the human time
perception threshold, then I'll be ready to give up text consoles.
Until then, I want them.
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Jerry James
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On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 10:28:13PM +0200, Karel Zak wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 03:46:11PM -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
> > If you want to run terminal applications, can't you just log in to a
> > full screen gnome-terminal?
>
> He wants to use audio before login to X Window. Somehow I don't understand
> how do you want to fix this problem by gnome-terminal...

Audio works on the GDM login screen. Orca starts and reads the login
window to me...

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On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Chuck Anderson <cra@wpi.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 10:28:13PM +0200, Karel Zak wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 03:46:11PM -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
>> > If you want to run terminal applications, can't you just log in to a
>> > full screen gnome-terminal?
>>
>> He wants to use audio before login to X Window. Somehow I don't understand
>> how do you want to fix this problem by gnome-terminal...
>
> Audio works on the GDM login screen. Orca starts and reads the login
> window to me...

Exactly; the GDM team did a lot of work over the last two cycles to
make GDM fully accessible.

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On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Jerry James <loganjerry@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Colin Walters <walters@verbum.org> wrote:
>> If you want to run terminal applications, can't you just log in to a
>> full screen gnome-terminal?
>
> I got the impression that Janina was talking about those who need
> audio to be able to login in the first place.

Probably both. In any case, our answer is GDM and gnome-terminal.

> Those have been useful to me in a lot of circumstances that I don't
> see going away anytime soon. Here are a few just off the top of my
> head.
>
> 1. It's late. I'm tired. I log out, then remember some small system
> administration task I meant to do. Rather than wait for all the GUI
> stuff to reload as I log back in, it is much faster to switch to a
> text console, login there, do my task, then log back out.

"Login is slow" - something we know about and makes sense to fix,
rather than having an entirely different way to log in. Another
answer is that if you hold down a magic key sequence (say
Ctrl-Shift-t) then you get just gnome-terminal.

> 2. I'm playing some game that runs at a low resolution and it crashes.
> I don't know why, but my mouse is almost always nonfunctional
> afterwards. When my desktop is at 320x200 and I can't use the mouse,
> regaining control is difficult. I often switch to a text console so I
> can clean up some running programs in a nice way before I
> Ctrl-Alt-Backspace to get my X back.

First, fix the app. Second, invest some in making the system robust
against applications that crash. Third, land
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/CrashHandling so you don't need
to use GDB manually.

> 3. I launch some X program that consumes 100% CPU and is clearly out
> of control. In those cases, the mouse becomes sluggish. It can take
> a very long time to either launch a gnome-terminal or get the mouse
> over a gnome-terminal so I can click on it, have the click actually
> move the focus to that window, type the command to kill the process,
> have the typed text actually show up on the gnome-terminal, press the
> Enter key, then wait the shell to process the command. It is MUCH
> faster to switch to a text console, login, kill the process, logout,
> and switch back to X.

I don't see that problem here with an app just burning a core. Now if
you're in swap, obviously that's a whole other issue.

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