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Old 08-28-2008, 05:54 PM
Luya Tshimbalanga
 
Default Micro Fedora

Hello,

A Fedora user nicknamed stevea has posted an topic about making micro Fedora. It
will be nice to take a look because he may be a very important contributors
given his skills in embedded.

"
The minimalFedora system weighed in at 67MB. 58MB was in /lib/modules. I could
easily pare that down to a few MB, remove unused drivers with a little work.
Another 6.5MB was in /boot and 1.7MB in busybox. Aside from the homemade
inittab and rcS (init script) it was all from the Fedora distro,".

References:
-----------
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=190084

--
Luya Tshimbalanga
Fedora Project contributor
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/LuyaTshimbalanga

P.S: disregard the comparison with BSD topic.

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Old 08-28-2008, 06:33 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Micro Fedora

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Luya Tshimbalanga
<luya_tfz@thefinalzone.com> wrote:
> The minimalFedora system weighed in at 67MB. 58MB was in /lib/modules. I could
> easily pare that down to a few MB, remove unused drivers with a little work.
> Another 6.5MB was in /boot and 1.7MB in busybox. Aside from the homemade
> inittab and rcS (init script) it was all from the Fedora distro,".

It's interesting...but if i'm reading the post correctly, he's
basically sacrificed the ability to receive system updates...that has
consequences. Consequences we as a project might not officially want
to endorse.

Now maybe he and a few other people can support pushing update images
instead of individual packages or something to deal with updates. But
a solution like that would classified as a derived distribution. Can
we make room for that sort of community effort under the larger Fedora
Project? The people who want to do this, they may need to provide
their own hosting and image compose iron. We may not be able to put
existing project resources towards it.

On a brighter note, the new trademark guidelines may adequately cover
this sort of thing so they can use our branding without additional
hassle in the same way that the Fedora Unity guys are going to get to
use the trademark for their re-spins under the new trademark
guidelines. I wonder if the Fedora Unity guys would be interested in
working with him in terms of hosting and composing infrastructure for
the concept.

-jef

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Old 08-28-2008, 06:43 PM
"Daniel P. Berrange"
 
Default Micro Fedora

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 10:33:54AM -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Luya Tshimbalanga
> <luya_tfz@thefinalzone.com> wrote:
> > The minimalFedora system weighed in at 67MB. 58MB was in /lib/modules. I could
> > easily pare that down to a few MB, remove unused drivers with a little work.
> > Another 6.5MB was in /boot and 1.7MB in busybox. Aside from the homemade
> > inittab and rcS (init script) it was all from the Fedora distro,".
>
> It's interesting...but if i'm reading the post correctly, he's
> basically sacrificed the ability to receive system updates...that has
> consequences. Consequences we as a project might not officially want
> to endorse.
>
> Now maybe he and a few other people can support pushing update images
> instead of individual packages or something to deal with updates. But
> a solution like that would classified as a derived distribution. Can
> we make room for that sort of community effort under the larger Fedora
> Project? The people who want to do this, they may need to provide
> their own hosting and image compose iron. We may not be able to put
> existing project resources towards it.

We are doing exactly this kind of model in the oVirt project. For the
'oVirt managed node' (ie the OS which hosts the virtual machines), we
build a OS appliance image using a derivative of livecd-creator. This
runs stateless - all persistent config is stored in oVirt's management
system. We just load the entire OS image over PXE at boot time. We're
currently building off Fedora 9 repos, and have a < 64 MB OS image.
Per-RPM updates are irrelevant - since we're stateless, we just upload
a new OS image to the PXE server and reboot the host in question and
it'll be running the new code. The key issue here is obviously the
periodic distribution of the binary OS images - arguably you could just
put the pre-built OS image inside an RPM and just use 'yum update' to
pull it down to the PXE server.

Daniel
--
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:52 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Micro Fedora

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Daniel P. Berrange
<berrange@redhat.com> wrote:
> We are doing exactly this kind of model in the oVirt project. For the
> 'oVirt managed node' (ie the OS which hosts the virtual machines), we
> build a OS appliance image using a derivative of livecd-creator. This
> runs stateless - all persistent config is stored in oVirt's management
> system. We just load the entire OS image over PXE at boot time. We're
> currently building off Fedora 9 repos, and have a < 64 MB OS image.

You may want to compare notes with him. I'm not sure what his use
case is other than 'I wonder how small I can make a workable Fedora
with a login prompt'.

-jef

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Old 08-28-2008, 08:16 PM
"Daniel P. Berrange"
 
Default Micro Fedora

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 10:52:16AM -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Daniel P. Berrange
> <berrange@redhat.com> wrote:
> > We are doing exactly this kind of model in the oVirt project. For the
> > 'oVirt managed node' (ie the OS which hosts the virtual machines), we
> > build a OS appliance image using a derivative of livecd-creator. This
> > runs stateless - all persistent config is stored in oVirt's management
> > system. We just load the entire OS image over PXE at boot time. We're
> > currently building off Fedora 9 repos, and have a < 64 MB OS image.
>
> You may want to compare notes with him. I'm not sure what his use
> case is other than 'I wonder how small I can make a workable Fedora
> with a login prompt'.

Looking at the notes on fedoraforum it seems we have a slightly different
approach. He's gone for space saving by switching to busybox. Our goal
was that we wanted to keep the same pieces of functionality, just strip
out the bits we didn't need, so we don't have to spend time debugging
differences between busybox & coreutils. Of course finding the bits
which aren't needed is fun in itself & somewhat of a moving target. So
whereever possible we've been filing BZ to get som5Ce RPMs split up into
finer grained sub-RPMs

If anyone's interested in size minimization, our kickstart %post script is
here:

http://git.et.redhat.com/?p=ovirt.git;a=blob;f=ovirt-host-creator/common-post.ks

Daniel
--
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:26 PM
"Daniel P. Berrange"
 
Default Micro Fedora

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 09:16:55PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 10:52:16AM -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Daniel P. Berrange
> > <berrange@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > We are doing exactly this kind of model in the oVirt project. For the
> > > 'oVirt managed node' (ie the OS which hosts the virtual machines), we
> > > build a OS appliance image using a derivative of livecd-creator. This
> > > runs stateless - all persistent config is stored in oVirt's management
> > > system. We just load the entire OS image over PXE at boot time. We're
> > > currently building off Fedora 9 repos, and have a < 64 MB OS image.
> >
> > You may want to compare notes with him. I'm not sure what his use
> > case is other than 'I wonder how small I can make a workable Fedora
> > with a login prompt'.
>
> Looking at the notes on fedoraforum it seems we have a slightly different
> approach. He's gone for space saving by switching to busybox

Reading more closely I see it involved ditching glibc/initscripts too

"Anyway after a little manual janitorial work I had it down to kernel+busybox.
(note - busybox is statically linked so I dumped glibc)
...
aside from the homemade inittab and rcS (init script) it was all from
the Fedora distro,'

So pretty much only bits of Fedora in use are the kernel & busybox, even
the init scripts are custom. So not really much trace of Fedora left at
all. Not sure why you'd go to the trouble of doing the initial anconda
install at that point - might as well just 'rpm --no-deps' install kernel
+ busybox RPMs into a chroot & add the custom init script.

Daniel
--
|: Red Hat, Engineering, London -o- http://people.redhat.com/berrange/ :|
|: http://libvirt.org -o- http://virt-manager.org -o- http://ovirt.org :|
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Old 08-29-2008, 08:19 AM
Patrice Kadionik
 
Default Micro Fedora

Hello,

A Fedora user nicknamed stevea has posted an topic about making micro
Fedora. It
will be nice to take a look because he may be a very important
contributors

given his skills in embedded.

"
The minimalFedora system weighed in at 67MB. 58MB was in /lib/modules.
I could
easily pare that down to a few MB, remove unused drivers with a little
work.

Another 6.5MB was in /boot and 1.7MB in busybox. Aside from the homemade
inittab and rcS (init script) it was all from the Fedora distro,".

References:
-----------
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=190084


Hi,

I'm not sure that it's the right way for building an embedded Linux.
With your method, you just have the Fedora kernel with all Fedora
patches and a big /lib/modules with a lot of unused modules for your
embedded system.
One prefers to use the fresh vanilla Linux kernel with busybox. The
Linux kernel is then configured exactly for your target. With that, you
have a Linux kernel (about 1MB) with its root FS (about 1-2 MB) adapted
completly to the target platform.


I'm building embedded Linux systems and I'm using Fedora just on the
host system for crosscompiling, debugging...


Cheers;

Pat.

--
Patrice Kadionik. F6KQH / F4CUQ
-----------

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
+"Tout doit etre aussi simple que possible, pas seulement plus simple" +
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
+ Patrice Kadionik http://www.enseirb.fr/~kadionik +
+ IMS Laboratory http://www.ims-bordeaux.fr/ +
+ ENSEIRB http://www.enseirb.fr +
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Old 08-29-2008, 09:27 AM
Alan Cox
 
Default Micro Fedora

> One prefers to use the fresh vanilla Linux kernel with busybox. The
> Linux kernel is then configured exactly for your target. With that, you

Maybe you do but if you have the extra space (especially if we could fix
the module packaging a bit) then the ability to use existing maintained
and tested code, and the fact "yum update" just works are hugely valuable.

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Old 08-29-2008, 12:56 PM
Patrice Kadionik
 
Default Micro Fedora

Patrice Kadionik a écrit :
One prefers to use the fresh vanilla Linux kernel with busybox. The
Linux kernel is then configured exactly for your target. With that, you


Maybe you do but if you have the extra space (especially if we could
fix the module packaging a bit) then the ability to use existing
maintained
and tested code, and the fact "yum update" just works are hugely
valuable.





Hi Alan,

Yes, you're right if you have enough memory onboard.

But, for an embedded system, having a very low memory footprint is very
important. So, if you can use just 4MB instead of 8MB, you have saved
money and your embedded system is cheaper.


Cheers;

Pat.

PS: I missed you last year at the LSM in the system session at Amiens. I
hopefully to see you one days...




--
Patrice Kadionik. F6KQH / F4CUQ
-----------

+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
+"Tout doit etre aussi simple que possible, pas seulement plus simple" +
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
+ Patrice Kadionik http://www.enseirb.fr/~kadionik +
+ IMS Laboratory http://www.ims-bordeaux.fr/ +
+ ENSEIRB http://www.enseirb.fr +
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+ 33402 TALENCE Cedex voice : +33 5.56.84.23.47 +
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Old 08-29-2008, 01:09 PM
"Richard W.M. Jones"
 
Default Micro Fedora

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 09:16:55PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> Of course finding the bits
> which aren't needed is fun in itself & somewhat of a moving target.

There's an awesome KDE program called filelight
(http://www.methylblue.com/filelight/ but also packaged in Fedora)
which I use to find those files that take up all the space.

Rich.

--
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powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top

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