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Old 08-13-2008, 02:41 AM
"Vasile Gaburici"
 
Default Asana-Math: close but no cigar

It's nice to see that the first (& only?) FOSS OpenType math font,
(and by that I mean one that has a math script, like Cambria Math),
has been added to rawhide. But the font is currently useless in
Fedora, because (i) our XeTeX is too old, and (ii) the unicode-math
XeLaTeX package is not installed.

Unlike most other TeX projects, XeTeX has it's own SNV repository.
I've been using the svn version of XeTeX for a while now, mainly
because I've reported some bugs upstream (and I mean to the real
upstream, not TeXLive). The repository includes all the required texmf
bits that XeTeX needs, but unicode-math is considered experimental so
it's not installed even by the svn installation script, thus it's
missing even in TeXLive 2008. But it works well enough for me and
others on that have tried it, including typesetting the whole AMS test
document.

Given that we package xetex separately in texlive-xetex, and since it
doesn't seem likely that we'll ship TeXLive 2008 anytime soon, I'd
like to prose that we switch xetex to its own upstream sources instead
of getting the obsolete version from TeXLive 2007. This will fix (i)
without having to wait for TeXLive 2008 to get packaged. Since we'd be
using the svn sources, we can easily add unicode-math - it just needs
some files copied to texmf, so we'd fix (ii) as well.

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Old 08-13-2008, 02:52 AM
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams
 
Default Asana-Math: close but no cigar

On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 05:41 +0300, Vasile Gaburici wrote:
> It's nice to see that the first (& only?) FOSS OpenType math font,

STIXFonts? Well, not quite FOSS yet, but soon hopefully...

http://www.stixfonts.org/user_license.html

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Old 08-13-2008, 03:24 AM
"Vasile Gaburici"
 
Default Asana-Math: close but no cigar

The STIX fonts do **NOT** currently have the math OpenType script.
What this means is that they have nice collection of glyphs, but no
special layout features, so they're pretty useless for actually
typesetting something with them. The math script, aka MATH table, is a
MS extension to OpenType. MS has not yet officially submitted any
documentation for these math layout extensions -- and they are quite
extensive -- not even in the draft 1.5/1.6 OpenType spec. Despite
this, it is the de-facto OpenType math standard, and support for it
has appeared in FOSS projects.

These extensions are implemented only in the Cambria Math font (MS),
and now in Asana Math (FOSS). Fonts using these extensions are
currenly usable only in MS Office 2007 (and some other minor non-FOSS
products), but out of the FOSS world only XeTeX supports them right
now. LuaTeX is scheduled to add support by the end of this year,
together with the release of the GUST Math font.

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 5:52 AM, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams
<ivazqueznet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 05:41 +0300, Vasile Gaburici wrote:
>> It's nice to see that the first (& only?) FOSS OpenType math font,
>
> STIXFonts? Well, not quite FOSS yet, but soon hopefully...
>
> http://www.stixfonts.org/user_license.html
>
> --
> Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet@gmail.com>
>

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Old 08-13-2008, 04:34 AM
"Vasile Gaburici"
 
Default Asana-Math: close but no cigar

It turns out that STIX beta fonts have a modicum of MATH table (it
didn't occur to me check), but not math script support. Because of the
MATH table, STIXGeneral gets recognized as math font in Office 2007,
but it doesn't really work; as soon as you type anything, you get
Cambria Math instead. See:
http://blogs.msdn.com/murrays/archive/2007/11/06/stix-beta-fonts.aspx.
Also, the way the STIX fonts are spread across multiple otf files
doesn't work with any typesetting software; but hey, if you just want
to gawk at the glyphs with unicode.org's unibook viewer, it's fine.

$ otfinfo -t /usr/share/fonts/stix/STIXGeneral.otf
251327 CFF
28 FFTM
30 GDEF
242 MATH
96 OS/2
4346 cmap
54 head
36 hhea
10026 hmtx
6 maxp
6393 name
32 post
572 prop
$ otfinfo -s /usr/share/fonts/stix/STIXGeneral.otf
<<nothing>>

$ otfinfo -t /usr/share/fonts/asana-math/asana-math.otf
354717 CFF
28 FFTM
30 GDEF
80 GPOS
1268 GSUB
12168 MATH
96 OS/2
2262 cmap
44 feat
54 head
36 hhea
12076 hmtx
6 maxp
128 morx
15289 name
32 post
542 prop
$ otfinfo -s /usr/share/fonts/asana-math/asana-math.otf
DFLT Default
grek Greek
latn Latin
math <unknown script>
$ otfinfo -f --script=math /usr/share/fonts/asana-math/asana-math.otf
dtls <unknown feature>
onum Oldstyle Figures
salt Stylistic Alternates
ssty <unknown feature>


On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:24 AM, Vasile Gaburici <vgaburici@gmail.com> wrote:
> The STIX fonts do **NOT** currently have the math OpenType script.
> What this means is that they have nice collection of glyphs, but no
> special layout features, so they're pretty useless for actually
> typesetting something with them. The math script, aka MATH table, is a
> MS extension to OpenType. MS has not yet officially submitted any
> documentation for these math layout extensions -- and they are quite
> extensive -- not even in the draft 1.5/1.6 OpenType spec. Despite
> this, it is the de-facto OpenType math standard, and support for it
> has appeared in FOSS projects.
>
> These extensions are implemented only in the Cambria Math font (MS),
> and now in Asana Math (FOSS). Fonts using these extensions are
> currenly usable only in MS Office 2007 (and some other minor non-FOSS
> products), but out of the FOSS world only XeTeX supports them right
> now. LuaTeX is scheduled to add support by the end of this year,
> together with the release of the GUST Math font.
>
> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 5:52 AM, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams
> <ivazqueznet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 05:41 +0300, Vasile Gaburici wrote:
>>> It's nice to see that the first (& only?) FOSS OpenType math font,
>>
>> STIXFonts? Well, not quite FOSS yet, but soon hopefully...
>>
>> http://www.stixfonts.org/user_license.html
>>
>> --
>> Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet@gmail.com>
>>
>

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Old 08-13-2008, 04:55 AM
"Vasile Gaburici"
 
Default Asana-Math: close but no cigar

Unlike Office 2007, XeTeX checks if a font contains the math script,
not the MATH table to decide whether it will work or not for Unicode
math. So with STIX it complains:

Package fontspec Warning:
Font "STIXGeneral/ICU" at 12.0pt does not contain script 'Math'

And predictably, it doesn't work:
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~gaburici/uni-asana.pdf
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~gaburici/uni-cambria.pdf
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~gaburici/uni-stix.pdf


On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 7:34 AM, Vasile Gaburici <vgaburici@gmail.com> wrote:
> It turns out that STIX beta fonts have a modicum of MATH table (it
> didn't occur to me check), but not math script support. Because of the
> MATH table, STIXGeneral gets recognized as math font in Office 2007,
> but it doesn't really work; as soon as you type anything, you get
> Cambria Math instead. See:
> http://blogs.msdn.com/murrays/archive/2007/11/06/stix-beta-fonts.aspx.
> Also, the way the STIX fonts are spread across multiple otf files
> doesn't work with any typesetting software; but hey, if you just want
> to gawk at the glyphs with unicode.org's unibook viewer, it's fine.
>
> $ otfinfo -t /usr/share/fonts/stix/STIXGeneral.otf
> 251327 CFF
> 28 FFTM
> 30 GDEF
> 242 MATH
> 96 OS/2
> 4346 cmap
> 54 head
> 36 hhea
> 10026 hmtx
> 6 maxp
> 6393 name
> 32 post
> 572 prop
> $ otfinfo -s /usr/share/fonts/stix/STIXGeneral.otf
> <<nothing>>
>
> $ otfinfo -t /usr/share/fonts/asana-math/asana-math.otf
> 354717 CFF
> 28 FFTM
> 30 GDEF
> 80 GPOS
> 1268 GSUB
> 12168 MATH
> 96 OS/2
> 2262 cmap
> 44 feat
> 54 head
> 36 hhea
> 12076 hmtx
> 6 maxp
> 128 morx
> 15289 name
> 32 post
> 542 prop
> $ otfinfo -s /usr/share/fonts/asana-math/asana-math.otf
> DFLT Default
> grek Greek
> latn Latin
> math <unknown script>
> $ otfinfo -f --script=math /usr/share/fonts/asana-math/asana-math.otf
> dtls <unknown feature>
> onum Oldstyle Figures
> salt Stylistic Alternates
> ssty <unknown feature>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:24 AM, Vasile Gaburici <vgaburici@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The STIX fonts do **NOT** currently have the math OpenType script.
>> What this means is that they have nice collection of glyphs, but no
>> special layout features, so they're pretty useless for actually
>> typesetting something with them. The math script, aka MATH table, is a
>> MS extension to OpenType. MS has not yet officially submitted any
>> documentation for these math layout extensions -- and they are quite
>> extensive -- not even in the draft 1.5/1.6 OpenType spec. Despite
>> this, it is the de-facto OpenType math standard, and support for it
>> has appeared in FOSS projects.
>>
>> These extensions are implemented only in the Cambria Math font (MS),
>> and now in Asana Math (FOSS). Fonts using these extensions are
>> currenly usable only in MS Office 2007 (and some other minor non-FOSS
>> products), but out of the FOSS world only XeTeX supports them right
>> now. LuaTeX is scheduled to add support by the end of this year,
>> together with the release of the GUST Math font.
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 5:52 AM, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams
>> <ivazqueznet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 05:41 +0300, Vasile Gaburici wrote:
>>>> It's nice to see that the first (& only?) FOSS OpenType math font,
>>>
>>> STIXFonts? Well, not quite FOSS yet, but soon hopefully...
>>>
>>> http://www.stixfonts.org/user_license.html
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>

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Old 08-13-2008, 10:11 AM
"Vasile Gaburici"
 
Default Asana-Math: close but no cigar

No, there actualy is some (unofficial?) MS documentation for MATH
tables. It has been seen by both George Williams (fontforge) and
Apostolos Syropoulos (asana).

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Dave Crossland <dave@lab6.com> wrote:
> 2008/8/13 Vasile Gaburici <vgaburici@gmail.com>:
>>
>> The math script, aka MATH table, is a
>> MS extension to OpenType. MS has not yet officially submitted any
>> documentation for these math layout extensions -- and they are quite
>> extensive -- not even in the draft 1.5/1.6 OpenType spec. Despite
>> this, it is the de-facto OpenType math standard, and support for it
>> has appeared in FOSS projects.
>>
>> These extensions are implemented only in the Cambria Math font (MS),
>> and now in Asana Math (FOSS).
>
> AIUI, the MATH table in Cambria is developed specifically for Cambria
> and will not be a 100% fit for other fonts; this is hy MS hasnt done
> anything about documenting it properly.
>
> Dave
>
>

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Old 08-13-2008, 11:43 AM
"Vasile Gaburici"
 
Default Asana-Math: close but no cigar

As for the "developed specifically for Cambria" that's a myth. If you
want to make statements like that, it's more appropriate to say that
TeX was designed for CM. There are 22 dimensions for a TeX math font.
There are over 50 dimensions ("constants") for an OpenType MATH table,
and some of them are lists! The MS folks in charge of this have stated
on their blogs & typophile that they wanted to move most of the TeX
built-in constants into the font. They were not kidding.

MATH table flexibility does not stop there, you can have as many size
variants as you like say for parentheses or radicals; these are
specified as lists; unlike TeX there are no built-in rules for
choosing the next "bigger" glyph from the font. Asana makes good use
of this, there are up to 5-6 variants for things like widehats, tildes
etc. When it runs out of the pre-designed stuff, it applies a
construction rule that's also defined via lists, although this isn't
anymore flexible than TeX AFAICT. You are limited to horizontal and
vertical constructions.

There's also a sub-table specifying alignment axis for math accents.
This differs from how mark or mkmk work. The positioning info is
shared between the accent and the letter. I don't think TeX has this
at all. There's also some adjustment field, but fontforge crashes if
you click on it

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Dave Crossland <dave@lab6.com> wrote:
> 2008/8/13 Vasile Gaburici <vgaburici@gmail.com>:
>>
>> The math script, aka MATH table, is a
>> MS extension to OpenType. MS has not yet officially submitted any
>> documentation for these math layout extensions -- and they are quite
>> extensive -- not even in the draft 1.5/1.6 OpenType spec. Despite
>> this, it is the de-facto OpenType math standard, and support for it
>> has appeared in FOSS projects.
>>
>> These extensions are implemented only in the Cambria Math font (MS),
>> and now in Asana Math (FOSS).
>
> AIUI, the MATH table in Cambria is developed specifically for Cambria
> and will not be a 100% fit for other fonts; this is hy MS hasnt done
> anything about documenting it properly.
>
> Dave
>
>

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Old 08-13-2008, 02:06 PM
Behdad Esfahbod
 
Default Asana-Math: close but no cigar

Vasile Gaburici wrote:
> No, there actualy is some (unofficial?) MS documentation for MATH
> tables. It has been seen by both George Williams (fontforge) and
> Apostolos Syropoulos (asana).

Ack. If someone needs the document, ask me offlist.

behdad


> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Dave Crossland <dave@lab6.com> wrote:
>> 2008/8/13 Vasile Gaburici <vgaburici@gmail.com>:
>>> The math script, aka MATH table, is a
>>> MS extension to OpenType. MS has not yet officially submitted any
>>> documentation for these math layout extensions -- and they are quite
>>> extensive -- not even in the draft 1.5/1.6 OpenType spec. Despite
>>> this, it is the de-facto OpenType math standard, and support for it
>>> has appeared in FOSS projects.
>>>
>>> These extensions are implemented only in the Cambria Math font (MS),
>>> and now in Asana Math (FOSS).
>> AIUI, the MATH table in Cambria is developed specifically for Cambria
>> and will not be a 100% fit for other fonts; this is hy MS hasnt done
>> anything about documenting it properly.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>
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> Fedora-fonts-list@redhat.com
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>

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